CKinTO Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 7 hours ago, RadiantGraphix said: Part of me thinks that Albert Moy is to blame for that ridiculous price. But that might be a result to the brain-scrambling I got by reading this entire thread again just now. The 3-4 times I’ve met Jim Lee he seems really charitable and nice... not the kind of guy who charges $1000 for a card stock sketch or $4000 for a bust on a sketch cover. The man gives away more detailed pieces on each of his Twitch streams. I'm a huge Jim Lee fan - I grew up reading his X-Men V2 run, and got a chance to meet him last year at Fan Expo and got the "Ultimate Jim Lee Experience" package ($150) to get 3 books signed and graded. He's a great guy in person, I've sat in on his panels (where he's funny and personable), and follow him on social media. That being said, he understands his "fame" in the comic book community, and isn't shy about charging a fulsome price. He will almost always have a free public signing as well (and he often does free signings at various comic store events), with the expected long lines required. Bottom line - great guy, but also a great businessman who's capitalizing on his hard work and long career making some coin while he can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadiantGraphix Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 44 minutes ago, CKinTO said: That being said, he understands his "fame" in the comic book community, and isn't shy about charging a fulsome price. He will almost always have a free public signing as well (and he often does free signings at various comic store events), with the expected long lines required. Bottom line - great guy, but also a great businessman who's capitalizing on his hard work and long career making some coin while he can. I’d rather see him charge $5 a signature and drop the prices on his sketch covers to a reasonable price than have him giving away his signature and charging RIDICULOUS prices for sketch ops. $4000-11,000 is a price range that gets you ORIGINAL PUBLISHED ART by Jack Kirby and the likes. I can partial understand pricing work at a level so he doesn’t have to take on a lot of commissions, but I’m the conspiracy theorist that just thinks some facilitators take advantage of the artists they represent and the fans are the ones that end up paying dearly for it. That being said, I still hope to get a piece by Jim in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommydee89 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 It probably is facilitators charging fee's on top of CGC's price... I paid like $154 to get a Amazing Spider-Man 100 signed by Stan Lee graded... The receipt I got back from CGC said the grading was only $64.00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 4 hours ago, tommydee89 said: It probably is facilitators charging fee's on top of CGC's price... I paid like $154 to get a Amazing Spider-Man 100 signed by Stan Lee graded... The receipt I got back from CGC said the grading was only $64.00 Hey, man, everyone's gotta make their cut, right...? Except you. You're not allowed to make anything. That would make you a "greedy flipper." But everyone else...? It's just their jobs, man. Albert Moy is a glutton. Catwomancomics 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Prince Namor Posted January 20, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 20, 2019 (edited) I tend to lean on the artist side of things in this 'changing prices depending on the situation' discussion, even though some of my friends are directly burdened with it..but I think artists are doing it for a reason that may or may not have been discussed here, but that I'll outline below. (Sorry, I have a much shorter tolerance for reading this forum, when every topic I think I will enjoy reading is full of notices of trolls who I have on ignore, and of course, having to see their nonsense in nested quotes, etc. It's too bad the moderation of this forum is friends with some of these people and allows it to go on. The unprofessionalism of how this place is run... has just soured me to being here much at all, and on comics in general,) Anyway... I'll tell you what happens when an artist decides to raise his price of signature fees for EVERYONE. He loses popularity and interest. Remember, back in the day, as greedy speculators (many of which who could claim to be fans), took full advantage of the fact that many professional sports athletes did signings for free. And then when they began to charge, and the demand for signatures went up, the speculators increased the amount of signatures they would get... Athletes and their handlers even tried putting a cap on the amount of items you could get signed (further unfairness to the real fan), but greedy speculators would find ways around this (have their friends stand in line too, or their kid, etc). Ultimately, it soured fans on the business altogether. Agents got involved and that was all she wrote. You can get a sports autograph now... but it's as expensive as hell. As a speculator, or as a... real fan, and I have no doubts in my mind RMA is a real fan, I know for a fact he is... but as someone who does a great deal of financial business through CGC... an artist is going to see that as HE is involved in that process because of his signature. You're asking him to give you something, that may or may not financially benefit you, but IS a part of your financial process. And that is different from a guy who comes up to his table with a beat up copy of his favorite comic. A creator is going to see that as two different types of interactions. I once watched two guys in Mark Waid's line getting their books signed. The first one had a Flash comic from the 90's that was in beautiful condition. It LOOKED like the kind of book that you'd get signed and maybe slab, but there was no CGC rep or anything, and Waid just kind of signed it and said, "Thank you". The next guy had the exact same book, but it was beaten to hell. And Waid just started to gush. "Man oh man! Is this your original copy? This is amazing! You really LOVED this comic! You must've read this over and over..." These creators… they’re artists. Most of them have NO understanding of commerce or marketing themselves or whatever. They make stories and draw stories and they want people to read them and enjoy them. THAT is what really makes them happy. CGC? That crap just confuses them. They will NEVER understand why we do what we do (or in my case did). It’s just weird to them. We may still be a fan. But we’re a way different kind of fan than they understand or appreciate. To them, we’re another person trying to make money off of them (like an agent, a publisher, a facilitator, etc.) No matter how much we love their work. Edited January 20, 2019 by Chuck Gower STORMSHADOW_80, RockMyAmadeus, jsilverjanet and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Good post, Chuck. To add to that, I'll say this that I've said elsewhere: creators do not understand collecting. They just don't. They cannot fathom why anyone would want more than one copy of anything. It is foreign to them. So, the guy bringing up the beat up copy may have never actually read them, while the guy bringing up the pristine, beautiful, window-bagged perfect copy may have read the story a dozen times, which is why they want to get it signed. But creators don't know this, because they don't understand collecting, and many, many of them think collectors are a little off...and, while they're not wrong, they still don't understand why. If you tried to explain the vagaries of collecting to a creator, they usually get that glazed over look in the eyes, nod, and then hope you go away soon. And that goes quadruple or more for slabs. "So, you're willing to pay $1,000 for this copy of New Mutants #98, but you won't pay $250 for that copy, when they're completely identical (to their eyes)...? Oooook." Catwomancomics, Prince Namor, CardiacKid1 and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich_Henn Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 (edited) On 5/21/2018 at 11:04 PM, tommydee89 said: It probably is facilitators charging fee's on top of CGC's price... I paid like $154 to get a Amazing Spider-Man 100 signed by Stan Lee graded... The receipt I got back from CGC said the grading was only $64.00 @tommydee89 Considering Stan's in hand fee for just the autograph was probably $180 at the time (maybe $160?) and prior to 2018, he'd been steady at around $100 ish for a while---I'd say you got one heck of a deal right there. And look at the money you saved by going to a convention, booking a hotel room, standing in line for 4 hrs----$154 in and out the door? WITH shipping? A steal all day long. Or was that $154 on top of the Stan Lee signature fee? What was the final grade on your book? Edited January 20, 2019 by Rich_Henn catch21 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan510 Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 (edited) To me there's a bit of an unusual gray area. You have the "fans" who just want to collect how they want to collect. I don't collect slabs per se, but I do own some and have subbed a few for my own collection. Then you have the people who do this to make money, either as a full time gig or as a side hussle for fun and profit. Then there's the odd duck who is both, a fan / collector and also a dealer. I sincerely do feel for fans who just really enjoy having slabbed books in their collection as they're being made to pay extra for the (mis) perception that the creator has of slabbing comic books. I don't necessarily feel so bad for the people who get upset because it takes more off of their bottom line as those types of people...right or wrong...helped create the (mis) perception that creators have of the whole business of sig series books. To me, the bottom line is they have something I want and I'm either willing to pay for it or I'm not. I have to make the decision for myself if it would all be worth it Edited January 20, 2019 by Logan510 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kav Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 8 minutes ago, Logan510 said: To me there's a bit of an unusual gray area. You have the "fans" who just want to collect how they want to collect. I don't collect slabs per se, but I do own some and have subbed a few for my own collection. Then you have the people who do this to make money, either as a full time gig or has a side hussle for fun and profit. Then there's the odd duck who is both, a fan / collector and also a dealer. I sincerely do feel for fans who just really enjoy having slabbed books in their collection as they're being made to pay extra for the (mis) perception that the creator has of slabbing comic books. I don't necessarily feel so bad for the people who get upset because it takes more off of their bottom line as those types of people...right or wrong...helped create the (mis) perception that creators have of the whole business of sig series books. To me, the bottom line is they have something I want and I'm either willing to pay for it or I'm not. I have to make the decision for myself if it would all be worth it I can sure understand the glazed look in eyes thing mentioned above!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) 20 hours ago, Logan510 said: I don't necessarily feel so bad for the people who get upset because it takes more off of their bottom line as those types of people...right or wrong...helped create the (mis) perception that creators have of the whole business of sig series books. This is a mischaracterization of the situation in two ways: 1. Those doing Sig Series had nothing to do to "help create" the perception of creators. They got in, they got their books signed, and they got out. The people who created the misperception that creators have are the facilitators who, in the (mostly successful) attempt to corner the market, told creators things that weren't true, like "people doing Sig Series are making money off of you, and you need a piece of that...and *I* can help you get it!", acting in their own interests, and creating the problem you have today, with "tiered" pricing based on information that is no one's business but the owner of the copy being signed. 2. No one is upset because it "takes more off of their bottom line." That isn't the issue, has never been the issue, and still isn't the issue. The issue is charging a higher price for the very same service, the very same effort, based on the misperception in #1. If Creator X wants to charge $1,000 for his signature...he/she is perfectly free to do that, and everyone is free to decide if that is worth it to them. The issue comes when Creator X...or his proxies in the form of monopolistic "facilitators"...demand to know what people intend to do with their property, and then charge a different, higher price depending on the answer. That is the heart of the issue, and always has been. Repeated, persistent attempts to make it seem as if the issue is merely about the price aren't going to change that fact. Edited January 21, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus DocGo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan510 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 I know for a fact people have not gotten creator A to sign their books for sig series because they charged "too much" and therefore it would not be "cost effective". I've seen this in person and have friends who have told me this. To say it's not an issue and has never been an issue is disingenuous. If facilitators are creating the wrong perception bad on them, but creators have the internet and access to eBay too. I've personally spoken to creators who have mentioned they see how much the asking prices are for sig series books on eBay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Logan510 said: I know for a fact people have not gotten creator A to sign their books for sig series because they charged "too much" and therefore it would not be "cost effective". I've seen this in person and have friends who have told me this. To say it's not an issue and has never been an issue is disingenuous. 21 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said: If Creator X wants to charge $1,000 for his signature...he/she is perfectly free to do that, and everyone is free to decide if that is worth it to them. (emphasis added) Nobody said it's not AN issue. It is. It's not, however, THE issue being discussed here. To try and subtly change the parameters of the discussion by engaging in wordplay is disingenuous. Edited January 21, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus jsilverjanet and DocGo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 8 minutes ago, Logan510 said: If facilitators are creating the wrong perception bad on them, but creators have the internet and access to eBay too. I've personally spoken to creators who have mentioned they see how much the asking prices are for sig series books on eBay. And I'm sure you explained to them the difference between "asking" price and "selling price", no....? And the difference between a 9.8 and an 8.5, and the effect that difference has on the value of signatures, no....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 All of which, of course, ignores the reality that commerce happens when people price their goods and/or services in a manner commensurate with demand. When Creator X sits at a table all day, because he/she is charging more for his/her signature than the market is willing to support, that doesn't help anyone. Economy works when everything moves, and balance occurs naturally between supply and demand, without artificial intervention by those who want to rig the system in their favor. If I want to get 20 books signed by Creator X, but he/she charges more than I'm willing to pay, he/she gets no money for their service, and I get nothing as well. Much better to charge a price that is supported by the market, and get cash flowing. Again....if the argument is "it's their signature, they can charge whatever they want for it, and if people don't like it, they're free to not pay it", I'm with that, 100%, and support that completely. It's THEIR sig, and if they want to charge $10,000 for it...hey, more power to them. You'll never see me saying they shouldn't be able to do that. But that's not the argument. The argument is "if Creator X is willing to sign for $Y for one person, but refuses to sign for less than $Y+$Z for another person, then they are creating a discriminatory situation, based on a scenario most of them don't even understand, because they've been told lies by the self-interested", and that's where there's a massive glitch in the Matrix. Stan's a great example of the former. He always charged the same price, regardless of where it was going, and the demand for his signature was insatiable. He never had a "tiered" system, and though the cost was high, the market was clearly, obviously, beyond question willing to support it. Good for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan510 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 What I've learned in this thread. Some creators charge the right amount for their signature and some charge too much. Some creators charge tiered prices based on a misperception. In conclusion, creators can do whatever they want with their signature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Logan510 said: In conclusion, creators can do whatever they want with their signature. Not in dispute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Namor Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 It's really not that difficult to understand... In Bangkok, all of the go-go bars are free to enter. Always been free to enter. But over the last year or two, they’ve started to stop Indians* at the door and tell them it’s 100 baht to come in (that’s roughly $3 US). As far as I can tell, and anyone I’ve spoken to about this or read about it, they are the ONLY people that the bars are doing this to. It’s certainly never happened to me. It’s based upon a misconception that Thai’s have, that ALL Indians are ‘Cheap Charlies’ (as they say). In actuality, there are a LOT of people who go in those bars and don’t spend money, but Indians are being singled out. Does the bar have the right to charge admission? Yep. Not in question here. Does the bar have the right to charge any price they want to come in? Yep. Not in question here. Does the patron have the right to not pay it and go somewhere else? Yep. Not in question here. ARE the Indians ‘Cheap Charlies’? Some are and some aren’t, the same as pretty much any race of people. Does the bar have the right to discriminate based upon their misconceptions about Indian people? Well, that’s where the grey area comes in. THAT is the angle that’s being discussed. (*Not to confuse those Americans burdened with a less comprehensive educational system - when I say Indian, I mean someone from the country of India. It’s on the other side of the globe (round spherical planet) that we live on - nestled in between Pakistan and China.) Catwomancomics, CKinTO, RockMyAmadeus and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfingh Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 It's good to know that the strip club continuing education circuit can yield analogies that help people understand comic creator pricing inequities. Only you, Chuck. Prince Namor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan510 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) The analogy is based on a racist misperception, so I'm not sure it holds up under scrutiny. But I get the point, I just don't agree with it. I fully understand how people can feel they're being segregated by the tired pricing. If it were me, I wouldn't do it. But I wouldn't tell any of my colleagues they couldn't. Edited January 21, 2019 by Logan510 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfingh Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 15 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said: Stan's a great example of the former. He always charged the same price, regardless of where it was going, and the demand for his signature was insatiable. He never had a "tiered" system, and though the cost was high, the market was clearly, obviously, beyond question willing to support it. Good for him. This is not technically true. It may have been true for public signings (i.e. people standing in the line), but not for private signings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...