PACIFIC COAST COLLXN- THE LAST GREAT SILVER AGE PEDIGREE??

[tth2]

My view is that pressing returns an item to its original form. It does not try to represent it by adding in new pieces or supplying new color. It works with the existing form and this is not restoration in my eyes.

Well, that`s just peachy keen, Russ.

 

Then you go right ahead and keep paying top dollar for HG comics that are only HG because they`ve been pressed. And if it becomes well known that some were pressed, and you try to sell those same issues for the same price, good luck!

[tth2]

Sorry, Tim. I forgot to post my response to Doug's admission that he has had books pressed. Here it is:

 

I`m surprised, Scott. I would`ve thought you`d be one of the ones applauding him.

[FFB]

And were you a big buyer from Pedigreecomics.com before this? Or are you planning to chalk this meaningless boycott up as a "moral victory"?

 

And you know my buying habits and purchases how? Feeling your oats today I suppose...

 

But I'll let you in on a little secret anyway...before I stopped buying slabs in December, I spent $8,234 on comics between Jun and Nov of last year. Alot of those were slabs purchases from the usual Internet suspects. I've never bought from Doug though but probably would have eventually had I not quit. I'd still consider him if he started selling raw but not after his declaration...

 

So yes I would have considered myself a big slab buyer...

 

Jim

 

I didn't presume to know anything. I just asked the question.

 

And why would you consider buying from him if he were selling raw? Raw books are just as likely to be pressed as slabbed books.

[Justin Case]

I dont think you have thought your last statement through properly. Just because Doug might sell a book RAW it doesn't mean its not pressed and anyway why have we moved on to pressing once again. Im having a had a hard time trying to remember what the title of this thread is without looking? OH YES THATS IT

 

'PACIFIC COAST COLLECTION - LAST GREAT SILVER AGE PEDIGREE'

 

maybe we can get back on track

[awe4one]

And why would you consider buying from him if he were selling raw? Raw books are just as likely to be pressed as slabbed books.

 

Maybe but I believe the majority of professional pressing is being done with an ultimate slab in mind. If I find out a dealer selling undisclosed pressed raw comics, I'll stop buying from them as well...

 

My stance is not that hard to understand. I don't like pressing. I'm not going to support the endeavor or the dealers that engage in it. It's not a crusade, a statement, or any other form of overt action. It's a preference, that I know other collectors share, and one that I feel strongly about...

 

Jim

[Silver Surfer]

I still say that if CGC decided tomorrow to lead the way towards the disclosure of all pressing done and/or known by them, with a simple indication online if you look up the cert. #,...

 

ie.

 

"professionally pressed by C. Freisen"

"professionally pressed by S. Cicconi"

"professionally pressed by M. Nelson"

 

...it would go a long way towards closing Pandora's Box. The information would be available if the buyer wanted to bother looking it up. It wouldn't be a different colored label. You wouldn't even have a notation on the label. Just make the information available somewhere. If you honestly don't care about pressing, then you wouldn't even bother with looking it up. (But something tells me that savvy buyers, including those on the boards here who claim not to care, would make it a standard practice to look up the info, especially with a big ticket purchase.)

 

It would go a long way towards convincing people that CGC really does care about the buyer. If there is any "stigma" attached to pressed books, the responsiblity for that falls squarely on the shoulder of CGC and dealers who have treated pressing as something not to be revealed. Dealers have been playing cloak and dagger for a while now. Probably feeling really brilliant that they could press a book and reap multiples. Easy money. Yahoo!

 

So I think it is in CGC's interests to be pro-active about this. Prices might level off for a while on some items, but I think confidence would eventually be restored, and a professionally pressed book known to have been worked on by a professional would actually carry a cache to it. What a concept!

 

If I know that pressing was done by someone with true expertise and experience, and who stands behind their work, then I myself would probably consider buying the book.

 

Bring pressing back out into the light

 

I've been proposing these ideas for over a year.

 

I know these solutions are mindboggling and terrifying to some, but it's time to get creative!

 

Brad

 

Hook, well said. However, Steve and CGC have entrenched themselves behind weak arguements and explainations to justify their position on this topic that for them to now do a 180 would be wishful thinking on our part.

[jbud73]

I`m pretty surprised that one of the biggest SA collectors out there, who`s also an up and coming dealer, has now publicly stated that he has had books pressed and doesn`t believe that NDP is restoration, and there`s not been one response, either pro or con.

 

Hello Tom.

 

I just Checked out the word "restoration in the Oxford dictionary.

 

Among other examples it states that Restoration is " the representation of an original form"

 

My view is that pressing returns an item to its original form. It does not try to represent it by adding in new pieces or supplying new color. It works with the existing form and this is not restoration in my eyes.

 

Regards,

 

Aussie Russ...

 

his name is Tim

 

As for your conclusion based on the definition - I don't understand. If restoration is a technique or method of representing something in its original form and pressing is a technique that does the same thing - how can you conclude it is NOT resto. If you're arguement is that nothing was added. Staple cleaning doesn't add anythnig and its considered resto by CGC.

 

Well you could counter that by saying a cleaning agent was added and dirt, or discoloration was removed. But then again heat and moisture are being added in pressing at unatural levels to remove creases and structural imperfections. So why are those not the same thing??

 

Thats why I consider it the most minor form of resto possible - to do otherwise is to exclude it based on inconsistently applying criteria used to assess other restorative techniques. I think there are a lot of collectors who probably consider it resto, but that are not in the least bit bothered by it. Kind of in the same vein as a book with a date stamp, or some other minor thing that doesn't bother some, but drive's other people nuts. Still that doesn't mean that date stamps do not exist and shouldn't be noted by the person selling the book.

[FFB]

As for your conclusion based on the definition - I don't understand. If restoration is a technique or method of representing something in its original form and pressing is a technique that does the same thing - how can you conclude it is NOT resto. If you're arguement is that nothing was added. Staple cleaning doesn't add anythnig and its considered resto by CGC.

 

No it isn't. Books with cleaned and replaced staples and no other work get green labels.

 

Even the Overstreet grading guide allows cleaned and replaced staples all the way up to NM as long as the staples are "vintage." A replaced staple is treated as a defect that will keep a book out of 9.6, but not as restoration.

 

Yeah, I don't really agree with that approach either.

[lou_fine]

I`m pretty surprised that one of the biggest SA collectors out there, who`s also an up and coming dealer, has now publicly stated that he has had books pressed and doesn`t believe that NDP is restoration, and there`s not been one response, either pro or con.

 

Hello Tom.

 

I just Checked out the word "restoration in the Oxford dictionary.

 

Among other examples it states that Restoration is " the representation of an original form"

 

My view is that pressing returns an item to its original form. It does not try to represent it by adding in new pieces or supplying new color. It works with the existing form and this is not restoration in my eyes.

 

Regards,

 

Aussie Russ...

 

Russ,

 

Why in the world would you consult the Oxford dictionary for a definition of restoration. You should know that their definitiion is more generic and not specifically meant for the comic book market.

 

A much more relevant definition would the one one from the glossary in the current edition of the Overstreet Comic Book Price Guideon Page 991. This definition of restoration was meant solely for comic books and states as follow:

 

RESTORATION - Any attempt, whether professional or amateur, to enhance the appearance of an aging or damaged comic book. These procedures may include any or all of the following techniques: recolouring, adding missing paper, stain, ink, dirt or tape removal, whitening, PRESSING OUT WINKLES, staple replacement, trimming, re-glossing, etc.

 

Now, from my understanding of the English language, the above definition from Bob Overstreet clearly includes pressing as restoration.

[Silver Surfer]

A much more relevant definition would the one one from the glossary in the current edition of the Overstreet Comic Book Price Guideon Page 991. This definition of restoration was meant solely for comic books and states as follow:

 

RESTORATION - Any attempt, whether professional or amateur, to enhance the appearance of an aging or damaged comic book. These procedures may include any or all of the following techniques: recolouring, adding missing paper, stain, ink, dirt or tape removal, whitening, PRESSING OUT WINKLES, staple replacement, trimming, re-glossing, etc.

 

Now, from my understanding of the English language, the above definition from Bob Overstreet clearly includes pressing as restoration.

 

I guess the readers of OS is that vile "minority" that Borock was referring to.

[lou_fine]

The only real stigma that we have in the comic book market right now is the creation of the PLOD by CGC. If restoration is already denoted on the label of the slab, why is there a need to stigmitize them any further by applying a different colour label to it. As a result, the demand and value of restored books is at an all-time low in the history of our hobby due entirely to this stigmitization by CGC.

 

You can't blame CGC for stigmatizing restoration - restored books were being shunned well before their arrival, partly due to market forces but also for the reasons that you stated later in your post - non-disclosure. It's been around a long time.

 

 

Golddust

 

Yes, I can very clearly blame CGC for stigmatizing restoration.

 

I agree completely with you that restored books have alwasy been shunned in the marketplace and this is due in large part to non-disclosure by the sellers. One of the clear mandates of CGC was to detect restoration and disclose this fact on the label. There was never a need to come up with a different colour label which has only serve to stigmatize the restored books to such an extent as to have a damaging impact on their marketability.

 

Everybody that's putting a lot of money into comics should be bright enough to read the restoration notes without requiring colour flash cards to tell them if something has been restored or not. This use of color labels has in fact dumbed down the issue so much that most people don't even bother to read the restoration notes at all. Books with slight restoration such as a minor tear seal is now seen in the same purple light by collectors as heavily restored books with extensive repairs.

 

If you don't think the colour of the label makes a difference, then explain why CGC blue labelled books with small amounts of restoration denoted on the label can still sell for over guide, while CGC purple labelled books with minor amounts of restoration denoted on the label can usually sell only at a deep deep discount to guide. This never used to be the case prior to CGC as collectors paid a lot more attention to the both the type and extent of restoration before determining a purchase price.

 

Bottom-line: CGC should just be disclosing restoration on their labels when they detect it, and let the marketplace decide the final price without any stigmatization by CGC through the use of their colour labels.

[tth2]

I agree completely with you that restored books have alwasy been shunned in the marketplace and this is due in large part to non-disclosure by the sellers. One of the clear mandates of CGC was to detect restoration and disclose this fact on the label. There was never a need to come up with a different colour label which has only serve to stigmatize the restored books to such an extent as to have a damaging impact on their marketability.

 

Everybody that's putting a lot of money into comics should be bright enough to read the restoration notes without requiring colour flash cards to tell them if something has been restored or not. This use of color labels has in fact dumbed down the issue so much that most people don't even bother to read the restoration notes at all. Books with slight restoration such as a minor tear seal is now seen in the same purple light by collectors as heavily restored books with extensive repairs.

 

If you don't think the colour of the label makes a difference, then explain why CGC blue labelled books with small amounts of restoration denoted on the label can still sell for over guide, while CGC purple labelled books with minor amounts of restoration denoted on the label can usually sell only at a deep deep discount to guide. This never used to be the case prior to CGC as collectors paid a lot more attention to the both the type and extent of restoration before determining a purchase price.

 

Bottom-line: CGC should just be disclosing restoration on their labels when they detect it, and let the marketplace decide the final price without any stigmatization by CGC through the use of their colour labels.

Hey Lou, you know what, if it would cause CGC to disclose NDP as restoration, albeit the lowest type (along with "tiny" color touch and glue), then I'm finally coming over to your position. Get rid of the purple label and make them all blue, and let the market judge for itself.

 

I firmly believe that blue label books disclosed as pressed or restored will sell at a discount to blue label non-pressed/restored books. I think the market already discounts known pressed upgrades, and even discounts books that are known to be upgrades (even if were just resubs, no pressing involved). If Doug put his upgraded 9.8 PC X-Men #1 for sale at the same time Tom put his 9.8 Curator X-Men #1, I would give huge odds that the Curator copy would get a higher price.

[FFB]

PRESSING OUT WINKLES

 

What's a "winkle"? and why are you talking like Elmer Fudd?

[FFB]

A much more relevant definition would the one one from the glossary in the current edition of the Overstreet Comic Book Price Guideon Page 991. This definition of restoration was meant solely for comic books and states as follow:

 

RESTORATION - Any attempt, whether professional or amateur, to enhance the appearance of an aging or damaged comic book. These procedures may include any or all of the following techniques: recolouring, adding missing paper, stain, ink, dirt or tape removal, whitening, PRESSING OUT WINKLES, staple replacement, trimming, re-glossing, etc.

 

Now, from my understanding of the English language, the above definition from Bob Overstreet clearly includes pressing as restoration.

 

I guess the readers of OS is that vile "minority" that Borock was referring to.

 

Of course, that's inconsistent with what Sue Cicconi says in the same grading guide at page 100 about pressing not being restoration. She also considers dry cleaning to be restoration (see page 94).

 

The staple replacement thing is a real head-scratcher too. In several places in the guide, the guide says that staple replacement is ok all the way up to NM 9.4 if you use vintage staples, and that you can replace any staple up to a Fine 6.0. And still, the definition of restoration says that staple replacement is included. I think it's fair to say that the guide has more than its share of internal inconsistencies and probably shouldn't be relied on as the be-all, end-all of the debate.

[FFB]

The only real stigma that we have in the comic book market right now is the creation of the PLOD by CGC. If restoration is already denoted on the label of the slab, why is there a need to stigmitize them any further by applying a different colour label to it. As a result, the demand and value of restored books is at an all-time low in the history of our hobby due entirely to this stigmitization by CGC.

 

You can't blame CGC for stigmatizing restoration - restored books were being shunned well before their arrival, partly due to market forces but also for the reasons that you stated later in your post - non-disclosure. It's been around a long time.

 

 

Golddust

 

Yes, I can very clearly blame CGC for stigmatizing restoration.

 

I agree completely with you that restored books have alwasy been shunned in the marketplace and this is due in large part to non-disclosure by the sellers. One of the clear mandates of CGC was to detect restoration and disclose this fact on the label. There was never a need to come up with a different colour label which has only serve to stigmatize the restored books to such an extent as to have a damaging impact on their marketability.

 

Everybody that's putting a lot of money into comics should be bright enough to read the restoration notes without requiring colour flash cards to tell them if something has been restored or not. This use of color labels has in fact dumbed down the issue so much that most people don't even bother to read the restoration notes at all. Books with slight restoration such as a minor tear seal is now seen in the same purple light by collectors as heavily restored books with extensive repairs.

 

If you don't think the colour of the label makes a difference, then explain why CGC blue labelled books with small amounts of restoration denoted on the label can still sell for over guide, while CGC purple labelled books with minor amounts of restoration denoted on the label can usually sell only at a deep deep discount to guide. This never used to be the case prior to CGC as collectors paid a lot more attention to the both the type and extent of restoration before determining a purchase price.

 

Bottom-line: CGC should just be disclosing restoration on their labels when they detect it, and let the marketplace decide the final price without any stigmatization by CGC through the use of their colour labels.

 

Now you're talking, Lou!

[lou_fine]

PRESSING OUT WINKLES

 

What's a "winkle"? and why are you talking like Elmer Fudd?

 

Not sure, can't seem to find it in Overstreet's glossary. Guess I am just going to have to resort to Russ's Oxford Dictionary here.

[AussieRuss]

PRESSING OUT WINKLES

 

What's a "winkle"? and why are you talking like Elmer Fudd?

 

Not sure, can't seem to find it in Overstreet's glossary. Guess I am just going to have to resort to Russ's Oxford Dictionary here.

 

Found it on MS Word spell check;

 

Winkle

 

A small edible mollusc with a spirally coiled shell that lives in coastal waters. Genus: Littorina

 

Also called Periwinkle.

 

Has Known link with SubMariner

[AussieRuss]

My view is that pressing returns an item to its original form. It does not try to represent it by adding in new pieces or supplying new color. It works with the existing form and this is not restoration in my eyes.

Well, that`s just peachy keen, Russ.

 

Then you go right ahead and keep paying top dollar for HG comics that are only HG because they`ve been pressed. And if it becomes well known that some were pressed, and you try to sell those same issues for the same price, good luck!

 

Hello Tim.

 

I can see where you are coming from with these comments however I need to make my position a little clearer.

 

I now virtually only collect Pedigree'd comics. With that in mind if I want to purchase a certain Pedigree's comic that has gone through the pressing system then you are spot on. I will probably have to shell out top dollar for a book known to have been pressed.

 

As we are aware its not like all Pedigree's have multiple copies of an issue and sometimes it a once in a lifetime opportunity to make a purchase.

 

Your statement about reselling the book may be valid if the tracking of pressed books becomes the norm however in my case I have no plans to sell my collection so the resale potential does not affect my end goal of creating a hand-me -down collection to future family.

 

I will also clarify that I would prefer a non pressed book but if a pressed book is all thats on offer I will not be excluding it from my want list.

 

I hope this sheds some light on my situation. I respect your viewpoint and hope that you in turn can understand where my views are coming from.

 

 

Regards,

Russ...

[lou_fine]

PRESSING OUT WINKLES

 

What's a "winkle"? and why are you talking like Elmer Fudd?

 

Not sure, can't seem to find it in Overstreet's glossary. Guess I am just going to have to resort to Russ's Oxford Dictionary here.

 

Found it on MS Word spell check;

 

Winkle

 

A small edible mollusc with a spirally coiled shell that lives in coastal waters. Genus: Littorina

 

Also called Periwinkle.

 

Has Known link with SubMariner

 

 

Thanks Russ;

 

I knew we could count on you to straighten this one out for us.

 

Now, what's your take on Overstreet's terminology of "pressing out wrinkles" as being one of the techniques falling under his definition of restoration.

 

Sounds pretty definitive to me, especially considering that the OS guide is seen as THE BIBLE of the back issue comic book industry.

[tth2]

I think it's fair to say that the guide has more than its share of internal inconsistencies and probably shouldn't be relied on as the be-all, end-all of the debate.

True, but it's still probably a better starting point than Oxford's.