Wachowskis' THE MATRIX 4 starring Keanu Reeves (5/21/21) 4 4

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 9/13/2021 at 11:45 AM, valiantman said:

 

Switching colors would be "perfectly not confusing":

[valiantman]

On 9/13/2021 at 10:49 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Switching colors would be "perfectly not confusing":

No, I just meant that red and blue have clear meanings from what we know of the original trilogy, so it would be easy to switch things up and have both of them be a version of the matrix, because there is no way out this time. 

Plato's Cave, but instead of walking out into the sun, you walk away from the shadows and into a movie theater. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by valiantman

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 9/13/2021 at 11:51 AM, valiantman said:

No, I just meant that red and blue have clear meanings from what we know of the original trilogy, so it would be easy to switch things up and have both of them be a version of the matrix, because there is no way out this time. 

Plato's Cave, but instead of walking out into the sun, you walk away from the shadows and into a movie theater. 

http://bensternke.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/babyjesus.jpg

[Bosco685]

On 9/13/2021 at 11:35 AM, valiantman said:

@Bosco685 It seems likely that there are some "fundamental Matrix truths" that this film is likely to change... such as the meaning of the red and the blue. 

Given the overwhelming meanings of "red" and "blue" in political spheres, I wouldn't be surprised if Lana Wachowski flips the two meanings you've outlined this time around.

Time will tell. But it is a fair point after all these years they try to change things up.

[D2]

I think The Matrix is in a tough situation in some regards however...

This movie will make money. No question... this movie is going to make... MONEY.

 

That being said: The Matrix moved the needle.

 

So let's all be realistic here. It would be earth shattering if this movie broke the mold, again.

 

My biggest complaint was my comment above. Too many callbacks and too many references, harking back on nostalgia.
That's my biggest red flag. This dependency on the past. This movie series doesn't suffer from Star Wars Prequel problems, where the feel and vibe of the franchise was muddled.

Star Wars VII reestablished the feeling of Star Wars.

The Matrix feel never really changed a whole lot from the first installment.

 

Anyway, I expect a few twists and turns, but with the callbacks alone really lowered my expectations considerably. The hype train left the station.

 

[MetalPSI]

This is going to be another trilogy 

Which just reinforced my thoughts on media and I'll likely just stop paying for everything. Soon

[piper]

On 9/13/2021 at 10:43 AM, D2 said:

I think The Matrix is in a tough situation in some regards however...

This movie will make money. No question... this movie is going to make... MONEY.

 

That being said: The Matrix moved the needle.

 

So let's all be realistic here. It would be earth shattering if this movie broke the mold, again.

 

My biggest complaint was my comment above. Too many callbacks and too many references, harking back on nostalgia.
That's my biggest red flag. This dependency on the past. This movie series doesn't suffer from Star Wars Prequel problems, where the feel and vibe of the franchise was muddled.

Star Wars VII reestablished the feeling of Star Wars.

The Matrix feel never really changed a whole lot from the first installment.

 

Anyway, I expect a few twists and turns, but with the callbacks alone really lowered my expectations considerably. The hype train left the station.

 

It's only the first trailer...

[D2]

On 9/13/2021 at 1:16 PM, piper said:

It's only the first trailer...

I know, and how many callbacks and references did you manage to see in 2 minutes of footage?

[valiantman]

On 9/13/2021 at 4:53 PM, D2 said:

On 9/13/2021 at 12:16 PM, piper said:

It's only the first trailer...

I know, and how many callbacks and references did you manage to see in 2 minutes of footage?

I'm not sure I understand your point.  A new Matrix movie that isn't calling back and referencing the Matrix should be named something other than "Matrix".

It seems like you are suggested the Matrix would be better if it was more like Star Wars: That Kid With The Broom. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by valiantman

[MetalPSI]

Yes

[D2]

On 9/13/2021 at 6:46 PM, valiantman said:

I'm not sure I understand your point.  A new Matrix movie that isn't calling back and referencing the Matrix should be named something other than "Matrix".

It seems like you are suggested the Matrix would be better if it was more like Star Wars: That Kid With The Broom. 

 

I am saying they should focus more on original content and expanding the story through character development, rather than fan service.

(callbacks, references...)

Edited September 14, 2021 by D2

[valiantman]

On 9/13/2021 at 7:05 PM, D2 said:

 

I am saying they should focus more on original content and expanding the story through character development, rather than fan service.

(callbacks, references...)

How is that different than Star Wars: That Kid With The Broom? 

He's original, he expands the story, and his character developed from kid-without-broom to kid-with-broom.

Sounds like that's exactly what you're wanting to see in the Matrix universe and not all these callbacks and references to the... you know... Matrix. 

Edited September 14, 2021 by valiantman

[kav]

On 9/12/2021 at 2:55 AM, Bosco685 said:

Summarize again why this will be a dud. The point wasn't made the first time.

We'll revisit this when the movie is released and flops.  If I'm wrong i'll say I was wrong if youre wrong I hope you'll do likewise.

[D2]

On 9/13/2021 at 8:58 PM, valiantman said:

How is that different than Star Wars: That Kid With The Broom? 

He's original, he expands the story, and his character developed from kid-without-broom to kid-with-broom.

Sounds like that's exactly what you're wanting to see in the Matrix universe and not all these callbacks and references to the... you know... Matrix. 

I really struggle with understanding your point, in all honesty, and I truly want to grasp your perspective. 
 

So why do you keep referring to the kid with the broom?

What point are you trying to make?

If you are speaking about The Last Jedi, which I think the broom kid is from, I would agree with you. Objectively, The Last Jedi was the most creatively original movie of the new trilogy. 
 

I referenced Star Wars in specific because Episode VII was a clear reboot/remake of A New Hope, in a (modestly) successful attempt to reestablish the feeling and tone of Star Wars. Something that the Prequel trilogy ruined. Ergo (see what I did there) Star Wars Episode VII had a lot of callbacks and references to the original trilogy. 
 

My point was, I don’t think that was necessary, as Matrix 4 feels much like Episode VII to me, as a soft reboot/remake. I don’t think it was necessary because the overall Matrix language and tone was not abused and mutilated by other movie instalments. Argue if you liked 2 and 3, they still felt like the first movie.
 

From the 2 minutes or so, it feels like a copy of the original movie. A copy of it, not just the vibe and tone, but just, redone! Again, like Jurassic World was a retelling of Jurassic Park.

I was genuinely curious and enthusiastic to see this trailer and was disappointed to see how many, shot for shot, copies there were of the original movie.

This doesn’t seem to be an original film to move the franchise forward. This feels like a movie to take your kids to because everyone who watched the original movie is 40 now with families.

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by D2

[Bosco685]

On 9/13/2021 at 9:48 PM, kav said:

We'll revisit this when the movie is released and flops.  If I'm wrong i'll say I was wrong if youre wrong I hope you'll do likewise.

Here's where you miss the point. I'm not making repeat statements either way of its failure or success. I'm just asking questions about the content we have seen so far.

So why would I need to proclaim I was wrong? Meanwhile, you posting the same message back-to-back 'it's going to flop' within a one-hour spot which comes across as if that's all you want to convey. We got your point the first time.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Bosco685

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 9/13/2021 at 8:58 PM, valiantman said:

He's original, he expands the story, and his character developed from kid-without-broom to kid-with-broom.

[valiantman]

On 9/13/2021 at 9:50 PM, D2 said:

I really struggle with understanding your point, in all honesty, and I truly want to grasp your perspective. 
 

So why do you keep referring to the kid with the broom?

What point are you trying to make?

I think I'm having the same problem with your comments about too many references and callbacks to The Matrix.

If the new Matrix isn't a Matrix movie, because it doesn't reference and callback to the prior movies, then why even put the Matrix label on it?

It's like the Star Wars kid with the broom.  He's not from the original trilogy, he's on a planet that's never been seen before, he's probably a slave boy, is he the anti-Anakin?  The next Darth Vader?  Just a kid who could become a Jedi?

We have no idea because all we know is that they stuck him in a movie with a Star Wars title.  He could just as easily be in Harry Potter.  He could just as easily be in "All New Franchise Movie". 

What makes him Star Wars?

 

The Matrix movies clearly have a new character.  She's young, blue hair, seems to be a guide of some kind... so there's clearly new character development happening even in the new trailer.  Neil Patrick Harris is there.  That's new.

Asking you the same question, what is your point? In all honesty, I'm wanting to find out if you really are against references and callbacks.

Are you really wanting to eliminate references and callbacks to Neo?  Get rid of blue and red pills?  Don't show the falling green code?  No dark machines and people plugged into goo pods?

I don't see how a movie that ignores all those things about The Matrix should be called The Matrix and not just "Matrix knock-off, don't worry about the history, it's all new".

Maybe you're just saying that Trinity have stayed dead... but that's something you could say directly, instead of posting against references and callbacks.

Without references and callbacks, it's just a movie.  It's not a Matrix movie any more than kid-with-a-broom is a Star Wars character.

[▫️]

On 9/13/2021 at 9:48 PM, kav said:

We'll revisit this when the movie is released and flops.  If I'm wrong i'll say I was wrong if youre wrong I hope you'll do likewise.

What’s considered a flop though?

Movie sucks for fans yet huge box office success?

Movie is great but bombs at the box office?

I judge all films by the content with no regard to what it cost to make or what it brings in. The financials are interesting to many and I’m not knocking those discussions but I’m the same way I was in the 80’s. When watching Jaws or Raiders in the theater, never once did I wonder how much it cost to make those movies. Or if they did well in China. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 9/14/2021 at 10:23 AM, Scam Likely said:

I judge all films by the content with no regard to what it cost to make or what it brings in. The financials are interesting to many and I’m not knocking those discussions but I’m the same way I was in the 80’s. When watching Jaws or Raiders in the theater, never once did I wonder how much it cost to make those movies. Or if they did well in China. 

[D2]

On 9/14/2021 at 9:13 AM, valiantman said:

I think I'm having the same problem with your comments about too many references and callbacks to The Matrix.

If the new Matrix isn't a Matrix movie, because it doesn't reference and callback to the prior movies, then why even put the Matrix label on it?

It's like the Star Wars kid with the broom.  He's not from the original trilogy, he's on a planet that's never been seen before, he's probably a slave boy, is he the anti-Anakin?  The next Darth Vader?  Just a kid who could become a Jedi?

We have no idea because all we know is that they stuck him in a movie with a Star Wars title.  He could just as easily be in Harry Potter.  He could just as easily be in "All New Franchise Movie". 

What makes him Star Wars?

 

The Matrix movies clearly have a new character.  She's young, blue hair, seems to be a guide of some kind... so there's clearly new character development happening even in the new trailer.  Neil Patrick Harris is there.  That's new.

Asking you the same question, what is your point? In all honesty, I'm wanting to find out if you really are against references and callbacks.

Are you really wanting to eliminate references and callbacks to Neo?  Get rid of blue and red pills?  Don't show the falling green code?  No dark machines and people plugged into goo pods?

I don't see how a movie that ignores all those things about The Matrix should be called The Matrix and not just "Matrix knock-off, don't worry about the history, it's all new".

Maybe you're just saying that Trinity have stayed dead... but that's something you could say directly, instead of posting against references and callbacks.

Without references and callbacks, it's just a movie.  It's not a Matrix movie any more than kid-with-a-broom is a Star Wars character.

I see what you are saying.

 

The concern I have with callbacks and references is that, from history, movies and franchises become so consumed by making sure you are on your nostalgia trip, that they don't move PAST the callbacks and references. The movie is just a trailer for all things we already know.

You can have a Matrix movie and not pay homage to allllllll of the things that made the Matrix movie a Matrix movie.

Even further to your point, again, The Last Jedi, was a movie that had Star Wars elements in it, but didn't spend its whole time reminding you what movie you were watching.

It is the difference between watching an original movie in a series, or just a retelling of an old story.

There were far too many callbacks and references in this trailer for my liking. That was my concern. There were so many scenes in the trailer that, although commented on how we are back in the same world again, stepped further into the idea that, we are just treading old water.

Do we really need to see the same sparring room routine?
Follow the white rabbit. Really? Is that the only way to do it? Is that really vital to the Matrix mythos? Feels lazy writing to me.
Arms crossed while walking and shooting two guns... haven't seen that before.
Touching the mirror that ripples into water... I felt like the mirror was just, there... in the first movie, and Neo happened to touch it. Not that, it's part of the whole mythos... it's the same Star Wars mistake where Luke used a training ball on the Falcon in A New Hope... as though it was just, lying around... and now, all Jedi train with those exact same balls? Stupid.
Neo stopping bullets (which was cool the first 2 times, but a problem with that ability is it removes all sense of danger)

That's what I am talking about.