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How Lee took credit for "This Man This Monster" by FF Historian Chris Tolworthy
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74 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, N e r V said:

 

According to Stan (multiple times stated over many, many years) he did not change his name due to being Jewish. He was trying to save his real name for something better like writing the great American novel. Comics were considered a low end business for losers. A great many who worked on them were also embarrassed by it. Stan told many stories on trying to get out of explaining to people what he did. Comics for a long time were considered a field for people who couldn’t draw well enough to be professional artists or commercial artists or writers who couldn’t make it in a “real” field of writing. There are a lot of Jewish people who changed or shortened their names to be more “American” sounding but that’s not the case with Stan.

I was aware of that.   Although I can't say I know whether Kirby changed his name to sound less Jewish or just because it rolled more easily off the tongue.  I was commenting on how people use the original name of a person when they want to show disrespect.  It seems to be so when a person refers in one sentence to several people who changed their names, and only use the original name of the person to whom they want to show disrepect.  

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Just now, bluechip said:

I was aware of that.   Although I can't say I know whether Kirby changed his name to sound less Jewish or just because it rolled more easily off the tongue.  I was commenting on how people use the original name of a person when they want to show disrespect.  It seems to be so when a person refers in one sentence to several people who changed their names, and only use the original name of the person to whom they want to show disrepect.  

Ahh, got it. (thumbsu

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On 2/11/2020 at 6:42 PM, N e r V said:

It’s very possible a number of you may have heard this radio interview with Kirby on his 70th in which Stan calls in later during the interview and their “marriage” is played out with just the two of them. No wives, kids, friends or friends of friends getting in there to interfere and/or voice their opinions. Just the two of them agreeing to disagree on exactly who did what but in the end both agreeing they were both glad for the time they had together despite the bumps. 
 

Debates on who did what exist not only in comics but in science, music, writing and any number of other endeavors. This is certainly not unique to Lee and Kirby. Most never get resolved. My biggest “regret” with the whole Lee/Kirby debate has little to do with Stan directly other than he only and not Kirby lived long enough to see the mass success that happened to Marvel in the 2000’s and Kirby never saw the pay out his family finally got from Disney/Marvel. Anyway worth a listen for anyone who never has heard it:

 

 

 

Thread :bump: as I went looking for this one due to the recent Stan, Jack & Steve posts.  I remembered reading the beginning, but never followed it through to the end.  I am very glad this radio interview exists on the occasion of Jack's 70th birthday, when he and Stan were at least being civil to one another.  Thank you for posting it!  But Man, was I frustrated with everyone by the end of the segment, yelling into my computer microphone 35 years too late:

- Jack, unfailingly polite as always, but only barely able to articulate his points.  His published work over the years proves he was brighter than most of us, but I believe he needed a pencil in his hand and a drawing board in front of him to express what he was really thinking.  No wonder he was always at a disadvantage next to that gift-of-gab himself Stan Lee.  Speaking of which....

- Stan, who couldn't stop himself (on Jack's birthday, c'mon!) from asserting "Well, if the words were in the speech balloons, then it means that I wrote them!"  Which I guess is actually a walk-back from his more expansive claims.  So there is that.

- The Interviewer who on the one hand expects Jack to remember and be able to comment upon changes to the cover of Captain America Comics #7 from 46 years earlier?  And on the other hand, wastes everyone's time by asking Stan and Jack about the then-current Dark Knight, Grell's Green Arrow and The 'Nam?  If he was trying to steer the conversation away from controversy about the credits, then he failed when he served up the comment about Galactus' speech, which Stan couldn't help himself from spiking.  What a missed opportunity to just let us hear these guys talk to each other on an occasion when they were predisposed to be kind to one another.  :facepalm:

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On 11/3/2022 at 10:53 AM, jimjum12 said:

Where do we get this info from ? GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

Howdy,

This is from around page 648 in the PHM thread. There are several more posts there about the data.

 

Follow Up - Part 1

So I been doing some data mining on the Atlas Tales database.....

https://www.atlastales.com/search/n:7:c:w:s:s:b:1:e:1958:x:7:y:1963:z:s

That search shows all of Stan Lee's SIGNED credits from January 1958 until July 1963. Pretty much the post-Implosion Atlas to the rise of Marvel Comics.

In that time period, Stan signed 1,673 "jobs".

These "jobs" include everything from 1-9 page stories, including content pages (think the first page of Amazing Adult Fantasy), paper doll cutouts, activity pages, pin-ups, fashion pages and coloring pages. The guy signed everything he touched.

Yes, this splash page from Amazing Adult Fantasy 11 counts as 1 job.

Amazing Adult Fantasy Issue 11 | Read Amazing Adult Fantasy Issue 11 comic  online in high quality. Read Full Comic online for free - Read comics  online in high quality .

The total number of jobs signed by Stan in the PHM titles is only 97.

That's only 6% of his total jobs signed during the entire period of January 1958 to July 1963.

As mentioned in the prior post, Stan's first signed job in the PHM era was TTA 24 with a cover date of October 1961 (the end of the big monster period).

But other than Amazing Adult Fantasy, Stan only did a single 5 page story for most of the later issues.

Here's the breakdown of Stan's signed jobs by PHM Title:

image.png.b139b8779155fde64207baec5390c214.png

 

 

Follow Up - Part 4

Raw Data

Can't seem to get the spreadsheet to paste in here correctly, so here's the screenshots of what Atlas Tales shows for Stan signed PHM work:

image.thumb.png.0b7f24dcfdd61ad424603e7ba3f111c6.png

image.thumb.png.33d5c0a278cabd7d008e4b5d488b19a1.png

image.thumb.png.566d1f40b4cf765936a78c676e31e0de.png

-bc

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On 11/3/2022 at 10:51 AM, bc said:

Howdy,

This is from around page 648 in the PHM thread. There are several more posts there about the data.

 

Follow Up - Part 1

So I been doing some data mining on the Atlas Tales database.....

https://www.atlastales.com/search/n:7:c:w:s:s:b:1:e:1958:x:7:y:1963:z:s

That search shows all of Stan Lee's SIGNED credits from January 1958 until July 1963. Pretty much the post-Implosion Atlas to the rise of Marvel Comics.

In that time period, Stan signed 1,673 "jobs".

These "jobs" include everything from 1-9 page stories, including content pages (think the first page of Amazing Adult Fantasy), paper doll cutouts, activity pages, pin-ups, fashion pages and coloring pages. The guy signed everything he touched.

Yes, this splash page from Amazing Adult Fantasy 11 counts as 1 job.

Amazing Adult Fantasy Issue 11 | Read Amazing Adult Fantasy Issue 11 comic  online in high quality. Read Full Comic online for free - Read comics  online in high quality .

The total number of jobs signed by Stan in the PHM titles is only 97.

That's only 6% of his total jobs signed during the entire period of January 1958 to July 1963.

As mentioned in the prior post, Stan's first signed job in the PHM era was TTA 24 with a cover date of October 1961 (the end of the big monster period).

But other than Amazing Adult Fantasy, Stan only did a single 5 page story for most of the later issues.

Here's the breakdown of Stan's signed jobs by PHM Title:

image.png.b139b8779155fde64207baec5390c214.png

 

 

Follow Up - Part 4

Raw Data

Can't seem to get the spreadsheet to paste in here correctly, so here's the screenshots of what Atlas Tales shows for Stan signed PHM work:

image.thumb.png.0b7f24dcfdd61ad424603e7ba3f111c6.png

image.thumb.png.33d5c0a278cabd7d008e4b5d488b19a1.png

image.thumb.png.566d1f40b4cf765936a78c676e31e0de.png

-bc

its important to look at the original material because in the reprints, Stan's signature was added. There is also plenty of original art from PHM where "kirby/ayers" has been whited out when prepped for reprint material.

 

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On 11/3/2022 at 12:08 PM, gunsmokin said:

its important to look at the original material because in the reprints, Stan's signature was added. There is also plenty of original art from PHM where "kirby/ayers" has been whited out when prepped for reprint material.

 

(thumbsu Totally agree.

I actually have a complete set of original PHMs that I sampled to verify the data from the web sites. Also reviewed the voluminous work done by the sleuths in the Atlas Blog Spot regarding the job codes, inventory re-use, the "Burgos" effect and the mods to the OA. Thanks to all who compiled that!

-bc

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On 11/3/2022 at 11:16 AM, bc said:

(thumbsu Totally agree.

I actually have a complete set of original PHMs that I sampled to verify the data from the web sites. Also reviewed the voluminous work done by the sleuths in the Atlas Blog Spot regarding the job codes, inventory re-use, the "Burgos" effect and the mods to the OA. Thanks to all who compiled that!

-bc

hope you enjoyed the books!

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On 11/3/2022 at 12:19 PM, gunsmokin said:

hope you enjoyed the books!

Thoroughly enjoyed and thanks again!

I am still digesting them a little at a time, so many neat little rabbit holes to go down and cross reference. Since I sold my early superhero books ages ago, had to look up a lot of the stories online which has opened up the world of digital "reading" for me (another side benefit).

-bc

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The writer's mindset is always important to consider.  And this statement leaped out at the very beginning.

"Lee's reputation rests mostly on this book. 

(He's talking not about Amazing Fantasy 15 or FF1 or the Marvel Universe in general, but one issue of the series.  A very good issue, yes.  But one that billions of Marvel fans could not name if you offered them a winning Powerball ticket.

The writer would be helped by a bit of stepping outside himself. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 11/3/2022 at 10:53 AM, jimjum12 said:

Where do we get this info from ? GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

If you read the Kirby solo work, from the time he split with Simon to the time he came back to Marvel (I've been posting them - see the next post for links), and then read the pre-Hero Monster books - it's very easy to tell that it was still Jack. So there's that.

When Stan first lied about writing those books in 'The Origins of Marvel Comics', right in the first chapter, 'Jack and I were having a ball turning out monster stories...", it was pointed out to Stan that he never signed those books. Stan signed EVERYTHING he could - one page pin-up gags, coloring pages, paper doll pages - but somehow forgot to sign those?

He knew it didn't look right. So he adjusted his lie.

Retroactively, he began to say that he brought his brother in to Marvel (three years earlier than he actually had) and that he himself PLOTTED the stories and then Larry wrote the -script for Jack to work from.

But there's a big problem with that story too.

Jack's dialogue never changed. So IF it was actually Larry's dialogue, we wouldn't see any changes in the dialogue if the artist changed, right? The WORDS would sound pretty much the same.

I give you: Journey Into Mystery #90. The first story Larry does without the benefit of having Kirby do all the work (Al Hartley does the art!), and maybe one of the worst written books of the entire Marvel Silver Age. Personally, I think Jack did it on purpose, in the hope someone would NOTICE. Well I noticed. 

That's not the work of a writer having a bad day, or someone who's been scripting comics for 3 years... this is the work of a NOVICE who doesn't understand the rhythm or flow of how to write a comic book. 

There's no way Larry was writing for Kirby on those monster stories. NO. WAY. 

And he even rips off the ending to FF #2 (though that may have been Stan's idea). 

Larry was so bad over two issues that Stan hired Robert Bernstein, who did 5 issues before leaving (he didn't like having Stan take credit for the plots and have that come out of HIS pay as the writer - especially when Berstein was coming up with his OWN plots...), So Stan HAD to be the one to rewrite Kirby's dialogue.

Larry was off Thor - from what it looks like from Kirby's demand - and Stan handled rewriting Kirby's dialogue on Thor from then on. 

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Here are the links to my threads on the subject. LOTS of comic book reading here! If you want to know the truth, READ the comics, it's all there!!

 

Part ONE (1954):

 

 

Part TWO (1955):

 

Part THREE (1956a): 

 

Part FOUR (1956b): 

 

Part FIVE (1957): 

 

Part SIX (1958): 

 

Part SEVEN (1959): 

 

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