• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Real Stan Lee, but fake Kirby?
0

198 posts in this topic

On 2/16/2020 at 3:25 PM, eee91 said:

Longwinded explanation ahoy-

Back in the early 90's right before he passed away, Jack Kirby signed books for "Dynamic Forces" - Uncanny X-Men #304 (750 copies), Marvel Milestone X-Men #1 (2000 copies), Marvel Milestone Edition Fantastic Four #1 (supposedly 1961 copies, but the higher numbers have never been seen for sale). They came with a certificate of authenticity from Dynamic Forces. [Visual evidence suggests Kirby didn't sign these and that they were actually ghost-signed by his wife, Roz Kirby - but that's another whole topic altogether.]

These Kirby-signed books were not witnessed by CGC, as CGC didn't exist for years after Kirby's passing.

However, CGC was around to witness many Stan Lee signings. So what some people did was get their Kirby Dynamic Forces books signed and witnessed by Stan Lee. These books typically got a combo yellow/green label. Examples here-

https://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=39669&GSub=2358

https://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=44978&GSub=3978

So as far as CGC is concerned, the witnessed Stan Lee sig gets a yellow label - the unwitnessed Kirby sig is IGNORED for grading purposes and thus gets a green label. 

But in the example you posted above, it appears whoever got it slabbed requested that CGC treat the unwitnessed Kirby signature as a DEFECT. That's why instead of a green label, the book got marked down harshly and is graded as a 6.5. Examples here-

https://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=13155&GSub=1328

https://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=33356&GSub=2743

A little confusing, yes, but the label says that the Kirby is not witnessed. 

Nice recap, and correct. I used to own one of those Kirby books. To me, It seemed like it was a real Kirby sig, but I had other Kirby sigs to compare. I always attributed the variances in style to the fact he was much older on those Dynamic Forces sigs compared to my Silver/Bronze sigs on the first page of my other books.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why Uncanny #304? The other 2 make sense, but who wants an Uncanny X-Men 304 signed by Jack Kirby? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/26/2022 at 9:59 AM, Cat said:

Why Uncanny #304? The other 2 make sense, but who wants an Uncanny X-Men 304 signed by Jack Kirby? 

They'd over-ordered them?

It wouldn't surprise me if some store or distributor had a bunch leftover and gave them a big discount on it.  I

Edited by shadroch
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/26/2022 at 10:53 AM, James J Johnson said:

This would have me wondering too. Wondering about why Kirby would draw, not write; draw, an oddly segmented and shaky 4 piece 'J' with atypical lift points indicative of starting and stopping. And why, as an artist, with all that white area to sign in, why he would start his signature so close to the portraiture and at an angle that the top of his sugnature would run into the portraiture and his imprinted signature. 

Also, the signature appears to be drawn, not written; drawn, in very close proximity to the imprinted signature to make copying it an easier task. IMO, odds of this being by a hand other than Kirby = 80/20. Lots of red flags here, IMO 

 

I can help, odds are 100%. This print was done in 1990 in a run of 950. He wasn't signing these just like he wasn't signing the DFs etc. For reference, this is a post-'85 Kirby example

4869B6E9-5DEA-4720-9775-935EB39E3691.thumb.jpeg.fa7a79fb7ca5cdb8e069895526ec48b3.jpeg

and I've seen even sadder 😢

Edited by KirbyTown
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It'd be funny if the only authentic Kirby sigs are the Uncanny #304 ones. Take that, collectors! hm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/26/2022 at 11:59 AM, Cat said:

Why Uncanny #304? The other 2 make sense, but who wants an Uncanny X-Men 304 signed by Jack Kirby? 

As a practical matter it seems unlikely that he would have signed any quantity of anything at this point in his life. Healthy young sportsballers have a hard enough time getting through their Topps commitments, and this would have been an elderly man in declining health doing 1,000 immaculate signatures with nearly perfect consistency in a style he doesn't use.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/28/2022 at 11:47 AM, MTDEW said:

This thread reminded me of the chance I took 25 years ago. Dark Adventure is still in business today, so that's a good sign. Anybody remember this ad or have an idea how legit these could be?

20220528_123306.thumb.jpg.298550c28732c9b3f71bff741c99f6d4.jpg

Cool, do you have pics of the sigs? I'm happy to offer my two cents

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/25/2022 at 3:14 PM, wisbyron said:

Kirby was certainly not a millionaire and this is factually documented so it's factually researched.

I asked Mike Royer, and fwiw he said, "If Jack was a multi-millionaire, I'm the son of Hal Foster." 

His estate may have been worth a lot, but I doubt he had instant access to millions.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Acccording to celebrity net worth and knownetworth his net worth was 10 million
image.thumb.png.2c494b4112fa213d9b40478367cf5fba.png

https://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/authors/jack-kirby-net-worth/

https://knownetworth.com/jack-kirby-net-worth

Edited by kav
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/28/2022 at 11:46 PM, kav said:

I know I can't convince you of anything Sir, but- this is one thousand percent untrue. It's literally laughable. 

"wealthygenius.com" says Kirby was worth $20 Million Dollars. So does that invalidate your simple google search of Kirby's apparent fortune?

If Kirby was indeed a millionaire he wouldn't have had to leave comics to go into animation as he did to be treated with respect and to finally get health benefits and a pension. Because the comics industry would not give him those things. If Kirby was a millionaire, strings wouldn't have had to be pulled to get Roz Kirby a pension for slightly over two years until her own death.

There is so much collected evidence to be researched, so many things to read and study to cross reference and expand one's knowledge of how things were. How can people just cite things or speculate when they haven't put the time in?? And don't read one comment on a message board. Don't read one article, read every article, read every interview, read every book and then, only then, compare and contrast- do the research so you know what you're talking about. Kirby a millionaire- no. 

Now, if you're speaking of Disney's settlement/his Estate- could be, I don't know- that has not been made public. But Kirby did not have 1 million, much less 10 million, or 20 million at the time of his death in 1994. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/30/2022 at 11:44 AM, wisbyron said:

I know I can't convince you of anything Sir, but- this is one thousand percent untrue. It's literally laughable. 

"wealthygenius.com" says Kirby was worth $20 Million Dollars. So does that invalidate your simple google search of Kirby's apparent fortune?

If Kirby was indeed a millionaire he wouldn't have had to leave comics to go into animation as he did to be treated with respect and to finally get health benefits and a pension. Because the comics industry would not give him those things. If Kirby was a millionaire, strings wouldn't have had to be pulled to get Roz Kirby a pension for slightly over two years until her own death.

There is so much collected evidence to be researched, so many things to read and study to cross reference and expand one's knowledge of how things were. How can people just cite things or speculate when they haven't put the time in?? And don't read one comment on a message board. Don't read one article, read every article, read every interview, read every book and then, only then, compare and contrast- do the research so you know what you're talking about. Kirby a millionaire- no. 

Now, if you're speaking of Disney's settlement/his Estate- could be, I don't know- that has not been made public. But Kirby did not have 1 million, much less 10 million, or 20 million at the time of his death in 1994. 

2 sites say he was worth 10 million and one site says 20 million.  You find a source that says no million and you'll have something.  Otherwise it's sheer belief-at least I sourced my income figures.  You have NOTHING but speculation.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/30/2022 at 2:48 PM, kav said:

2 sites say he was worth 10 million and one site says 20 million.  You find a source that says no million and you'll have something.  Otherwise it's sheer belief-at least I sourced my income figures.  You have NOTHING but speculation.  

I don't need to speculate, pal. No idea why you're yelling at me.

Kav, in the past when Prince Namor and I were discussing specific history you stated that you were uneducated on the things we were talking about- nothing wrong with that, there's all sorts of stuff I've yet to study up on myself. But I'm amazed that you assume other people are speculating because you are. Also, both of those sites are wildly_fanciful_statement and predicated on faulty bot-driven logic. I'd wager they're operating under an assumption that the MCU films are generating Kirby's perceived "worth".

I don't need to speculate. Evanier wrote a biography about Kirby. Read it. I've spoken with Neal Kirby extensively. Countless interviews with Kirby and his wife, associates, other comic professionals have appeared for decades in The Comics Journal, Alter Ego, The Jack Kirby Collector- go start reading up and cross reference everything and absorb it. All I'm saying is that Jack Kirby was not a millionaire in his lifetime. It's common knowledge that part of the reason Kirby was so prolific and productive was partially because of his need to provide for his family. Kirby went to work at not even a leading animation studio just because he needed health insurance as he was getting older; would a guy with $10 million need to do that?

If you're going to go all caps at somebody, know the score and come prepared with years of interaction and research in your pocket. Go ask Mark Evanier, go ask Rand Hoope, go ask the Kirby family, I admit they'll have more credibility than I do.

Or believe Kirby was a multi-millionaire if you want, that's fine. I don't want to ruin your faith in useless websites.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shadroch has an agenda. To casually provide disinformation like "a couple living in a million dollar mansion..." and then, later in the same thread says "mansion or not..." just displays the blatant resentment or agenda if you're going to throw off assumptions and then confirm you don't even know if they're factual. "Well, it's up to you to provide proof that the thing I don't know is factual or not isn't true!" LOL  Shadroch get into politics immediately

What's bemusing is how many comic savants are suddenly outraged at injustices based on an accusation that you can't even back up. Where's the outrage for all of the other misdeeds done in comics? Len Wein and Marv Wolfman- and this is documented- sold hundreds and hundreds of pages of stolen Marvel art in 69-70 at specific comic conventions. They had advertisements placed and sold the stolen (Kirby) art out of a hotel room and were photographed both there and at the convention itself. Why aren't the *documented* things more of an outrage than stuff that's speculated? Because it allows and enables people to make such comments they wouldn't make in person, plain and simple. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/28/2022 at 11:46 PM, kav said:

" the website future billionares read every day" 

...can't make it up

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know 2 people listed on one of those sites. One is listed at $45 million and the other at 4.5 million. Both are laughably inflated. One has a high income but gambles it all, and rents, doesn't even own a home, and the other was a flavour of the month here in Oz and that was it. She now works an anonymous 9-5, with assets stretched. Not even worth thousands. 

Dunno where those sites get info from, but it's bad. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/30/2022 at 12:43 PM, wisbyron said:

" the website future billionares read every day" 

...can't make it up

waiting for a link to your source of his income.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/30/2022 at 12:46 PM, Cat said:

I know 2 people listed on one of those sites. One is listed at $45 million and the other at 4.5 million. Both are laughably inflated. One has a high income but gambles it all, and rents, doesn't even own a home, and the other was a flavour of the month here in Oz and that was it. She now works an anonymous 9-5, with assets stretched. Not even worth thousands. 

Dunno where those sites get info from, but it's bad. 

Ok I admit I am wrong.  But, no one knows how much Kirby was worth.  No one here anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/25/2022 at 12:06 PM, shadroch said:

If you consider defrauding up to two thousand of your fans squat, I'd agree.  Personally, I think it leaves a dark stain on his legacy that a couple living in a million dollar mansion felt the need to squeeze money out of unsuspecting fans.   It's one thing to sign your husbands name to a fan letter who didn't pay for it, but the Kirby's took a large paycheck and committed fraud.  Shame on them. 

This might be the stupidest, most unfounded pile of  excrement I’ve ever read on the boards. 

Edited by gunsmokin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/30/2022 at 4:53 PM, gunsmokin said:

This might be the stupidest, most unfounded pile of  excrement I’ve ever read on the boards. 

What's funny to me is how "outraged" and judgmental some board members are about an accusation yet say nothing about other things that "defraud your fans"; Stan Lee used ghost writers for decades- Roy Thomas, Danny Fingeroth and Jim Salicrup are the major ones (so if you're enjoying those introductions to the Marvel Masterworks, I hate to break it to you, true believers- Stan didn't write those), to say nothing of Keya Morgan literally moving Stan's hand to complete autographs in view of these pure hearted fans- I guess some aging fanboys feel it's hip and subversive to be anti-Kirby but even if you liked nothing that he did, he was so defrauded and disrespected by Marvel that it's staggering. And to casually make s**t up like he lived in a "million dollar mansion" so flippantly- have these guys ever read an article, ever attended a panel, ever asked a question before spouting off BS?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/30/2022 at 2:18 PM, wisbyron said:

What's funny to me is how "outraged" and judgmental some board members are about an accusation yet say nothing about other things that "defraud your fans"; Stan Lee used ghost writers for decades- Roy Thomas, Danny Fingeroth and Jim Salicrup are the major ones (so if you're enjoying those introductions to the Marvel Masterworks, I hate to break it to you, true believers- Stan didn't write those), to say nothing of Keya Morgan literally moving Stan's hand to complete autographs in view of these pure hearted fans- I guess some aging fanboys feel it's hip and subversive to be anti-Kirby but even if you liked nothing that he did, he was so defrauded and disrespected by Marvel that it's staggering. And to casually make s**t up like he lived in a "million dollar mansion" so flippantly- have these guys ever read an article, ever attended a panel, ever asked a question before spouting off BS?

Have I ever attended what sort of panel? I was at many shows Kirby was at.  I'm not anti- Kirby in the least, except for when he seems to have engaged in defrauding thousands of his fans.  Unless you want to believe that at a time his friends were saying he couldn't hold a pencil, that he suddenly started signing thousands of books.   To me, that defies belief.  Again, these were not letters to fans. These were manufactored collectibles that fans paid premium dollars to get signed by Jack Kirby. 

Are you saying Jack didn't live in a million dollar house or that he didn't have an estate estimated at ten million dollars when he dies a few years later?

To compare that to someone using a ghost writer is bizarre.     I know when I think of Stan, the introductions to those Masterworks leaps to the top of my favorite works. To think he might not have written them is certainly a stain on his reputation.

Did Kirby get screwed by Marvel? Yes. Did he get screwed by Stan?  I don't know.  Did Jack die too soon? Yes.  Had Stan died first, I'm sure we would have a very different view of what happened. 

None of it excuses what seem to be fraud.

If  Jim Salcrup or anyone writes an introduction and signs the intro as Stan Lee I don't think its a big deal

If Jim Salicrup signs the books as Stan Lee and charges fans $50 for them, that is fraud. 

 

Edited by shadroch
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
0