The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/6/2021 at 12:25 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

There are many examples of T & P stamped comics with US arrival dates on the cover, clearly an indication that some, at least., had been through the retail system Stateside.

Yes, lots of examples of stamped copies making it here with US arrival dates on them. 

On 10/6/2021 at 5:48 PM, Malacoda said:

I’m not sure that nailing these stragglers changes the picture any. The fact that we were able to get to a 90/10 ratio almost straight away (remember I captured 84% of them in the first sweep) indicates to me that there was a whole separate block of cents copies shipped to be stamped for every issue or virtually every issue. It certainly was not a case of ‘oh, there’s a few leftovers this month, chuck ‘em in the UK crate’. 
Whatever this system / volume, it was clearly far less than the UKPV’s (though I think I saw a few where there were more stamps around than PV’s but it was a very few).  I would also venture that the volumes were inconsistent.  This might just be a trick of fate, but there are some titles where there are no end of CS’s for a particular issue and just one or two of another.  Retention by collectors (or lack thereof) cannot explain that. 
That said, it makes perfect sense.  The PV’s had to be a fixed, pre-ordered run which could go nowhere but the UK.  The CS cents issues, whatever the reason for them is, were clearly more flexible in quantity and therefore it’s not a surprise that the volume was flexed. 

The concept has certainly been proven now, as a result of your research, yes - we got both UKPVs and stamped cents copies during that period. I forget what we've already discussed on this Rich, but maybe the stamped cents copies were unsold returns in the US, as per the DC model. Have you, or did any of us ever identify whether they arrived concurrently? If the cents stamped copies were US returns, they'd get here a lot later, presumably. Did you capture any examples with US arrival dates on them Rich? That could be a tell. 

[Tghutcn]

I’ve been having a look recently through my collection and noticed I have quite a few with the stamps on if you have a list of marvel and dc what you need with the stamps on I might be able to help 

[Malacoda]

On 10/6/2021 at 6:16 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

The concept has certainly been proven now, as a result of your research, yes - we got both UKPVs and stamped cents copies during that period. I forget what we've already discussed on this Rich, but maybe the stamped cents copies were unsold returns in the US, as per the DC model. Have you, or did any of us ever identify whether they arrived concurrently? If the cents stamped copies were US returns, they'd get here a lot later, presumably. 

Spot on. And there is actually a way to prove (well, you know), that there was no such gap. 

The CS's went decimal 16 months before the PV's.  Mad but true. CS's went to 5p in Aug 70 and PV's in the GS month (Nov 71).  This leads to a weird little period where although World took over from T&P 5 months after decimalisation, they were distributing pre-decimal PV's, where T&P had been distributing post-decimal CS's. They actually rolled decimalisation BACK.  (Not relevant, but I always wrongly think the World era was all post decimal). 

The key point comes during T&P's last hurrah, when they were distributing decimal stamped CS's and pre-decimal printed PV's of the same issues. 
The CS issues of the dual priced titles (the ones that had both PV’s and CS’s) changed in the exact same month as the titles which ONLY had CS’s.  If the CS’s were returns coming over later, there would have to have been a lag, so what you get is the CS’s which are ONLY CS’s changing to decimal at one moment, and the ones that are (allegedly) returns changing over 2 or 3 months later. 
Instead of which it’s absolutely in lock step, even including the month of August 1970, when the stamps were priced in both old and new money.  This will be easier with an example. 
Captain America has no PV’s, everything is stamped. 
#127  Cover date July 1970 = stamped 1/-
#128 Cover date Aug 1970 = stamped 1/- and 5p. 
#129 Cover date Sept 1970 = stamped 5p. 
Thor, on the other hand has both PV’s and CS’s, so let’s see if he mirrors Cap:
#178 Cover date July 1970 = stamped 1/-
#179 Cover date Aug 1970 = stamped 1/- and 5p.
#180 Cover date Sept 1970 = stamped 5p.
It’s exactly the same.  This tells you (I believe) that the CS’s which also have PV’s came over in the same month as all the other comics bearing the same cover date. If they had been true returns, they would have turned up 2 or 3 months later and been stamped 5p. 

The fact that that unique month of dual stamping literally only happened for one month tells you one thing: you had to be on Ethel's desk THAT MONTH to get that stamp. 

[Get Marwood & I]

Great stuff Rich - this sort of research is right up my alley, and fits with my mantra that, often, the comics themselves tell you the story.

There's something that isn't clear to me though, still. All the stamped examples you have posted above are cents priced. I'm interested to understand what happened physically in shops during this period when UKPVs and stamped cents copies coexisted. Did little Jimmy pop to the shop and see a UKPV and a stamped copy of the same comic at the same time do we think? Where is your smoking gun example that indicates that a UKPV and a stamped copy of the same book were here on sale in the UK at the same time?

How do the three Thors that you posted prove anything in relation to printed UKPVs? They show a stamp consistency with the non-UKPV bearing Caps, but they are cents copies so all I am seeing is consistency between cents stamped copies. 

How do we prove that these two were on sale in UK newsstands at the same time?

And if we can, what does that mean to their respective journeys from production to being on sale? How can a US unsold return copy arrive at the same time as a UKPV? And if it can't, does that prove it wasn't a US return (hence my attempt to find an arrival date stamped copy)? Or were the UKPVs sat on?

Sorry if I'm missing something obvious in your explanation. I've only had one coffee this morning 

 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/7/2021 at 12:57 AM, Malacoda said:

The fact that that unique month of dual stamping literally only happened for one month tells you one thing: you had to be on Ethel's desk THAT MONTH to get that stamp. 

Different for DC? And indication as to how returns affect stamp type timing? 

[Malacoda]

On 10/7/2021 at 10:18 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Great stuff Rich - this sort of research is right up my alley, and fits with my mantra that, often, the comics themselves tell you the story.

There's something that isn't clear to me though, still. All the stamped examples you have posted above are cents priced. I'm interested to understand what happened physically in shops during this period when UKPVs and stamped cents copies coexisted. Did little Jimmy pop to the shop and see a UKPV and a stamped copy of the same comic at the same time do we think? Where is your smoking gun example that indicates that a UKPV and a stamped copy of the same book were here on sale in the UK at the same time?

How do the three Thors that you posted prove anything in relation to printed UKPVs? They show a stamp consistency with the non-UKPV bearing Caps, but they are cents copies so all I am seeing is consistency between cents stamped copies. 

How do we prove that these two were on the UK newsstands at the same time?

And if we can, what does that mean to their respective journeys from production to being on sale? How can a US unsold return copy arrive at the same time as a UKPV? And if it can't, does that prove it wasn't a US return (hence my attempt to find an arrival date stamped copy)? Or that the UKPV was sat on?

Sorry if I'm missing something obvious in your explanation. I've only had one coffee 

 

 

Yes, I thought that would be up your alley, Blackadder.

Nope, you’re not missing anything. Nothing here proves what actually turned up at the newsagents. If CS’s and PV’s arrived together, did newsagents get a mix or one or the other? I assume they were batched up so newsagents got one or the other.  Also more confusing if mixed. 
Even if you had the actual delivery note from T&P to the local wholesaler or the delivery note from the local wholesaler to the newsagent, it’s not going to say ‘and by the way, these ones are ink stamped not cover printed. Have a nice day’.  You’re just never going to get that.  I think substantiating what happened at T&P and assuming that distribution remained consistent is the best you’re going to get. 
I don’t believe these are returns, but it is technically possible.  Returns, at least from the East Coast, could have come back after a month on the stands and been shipped to the UK in time to still arrive on cover date.  They could be returns from wholesalers not retailers, meaning they were still in the same condition they went out in. I assume that retailers got their refunds from the wholesalers, not from the publishers, which might explain why there were 2 different systems (cutting the covers and not). 
It just seems more likely to me, with Marvel, as the normal system was to send freshly minted PV’s straight from Sparta, which they were still doing, and, we believe there were a ton of cents copies coming off the presses that were not US distributed copies, that these cents copies came from those, which also explains how they seem to have arrived at T&P at the same time as the other cents copies. 
You’re right, it proves nothing, at the moment, I just prefer this theory.  Arrival date stamps would help, but then when & where were they stamped, by whom and how long did they sit around afterwards?
 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/7/2021 at 11:41 AM, Malacoda said:

Yes, I thought that would be up your alley, Blackadder.

On 10/7/2021 at 11:41 AM, Malacoda said:

Nope, you’re not missing anything. Nothing here proves what actually turned up at the newsagents. If CS’s and PV’s arrived together, did newsagents get a mix or one or the other? I assume they were batched up so newsagents got one or the other.  Also more confusing if mixed. 
Even if you had the actual delivery note from T&P to the local wholesaler or the delivery note from the local wholesaler to the newsagent, it’s not going to say ‘and by the way, these ones are ink stamped not cover printed. Have a nice day’.  You’re just never going to get that.  I think substantiating what happened at T&P and assuming that distribution remained consistent is the best you’re going to get. 
I don’t believe these are returns, but it is technically possible.  Returns, at least from the East Coast, could have come back after a month on the stands and been shipped to the UK in time to still arrive on cover date.  They could be returns from wholesalers not retailers, meaning they were still in the same condition they went out in. I assume that retailers got their refunds from the wholesalers, not from the publishers, which might explain why there were 2 different systems (cutting the covers and not). 
It just seems more likely to me, with Marvel, as the normal system was to send freshly minted PV’s straight from Sparta, which they were still doing, and, we believe there were a ton of cents copies coming off the presses that were not US distributed copies, that these cents copies came from those, which also explains how they seem to have arrived at T&P at the same time as the other cents copies. 
You’re right, it proves nothing, at the moment, I just prefer this theory.  Arrival date stamps would help, but then when & where were they stamped, by whom and how long did they sit around afterwards?

Great stuff either way Rich - proving the dual aspect in that period is tres cool, and helps us further along the road of understanding. As a result of your analysis, we can now add a further factual statement to the history of Marvel in the UK, and one which may have escaped many, along with a whole load of new speculation conundrums. All good fun  

[Albert Tatlock]

On 10/7/2021 at 12:57 AM, Malacoda said:

Spot on. And there is actually a way to prove (well, you know), that there was no such gap. 

The CS's went decimal 16 months before the PV's.  Mad but true. CS's went to 5p in Aug 70 and PV's in the GS month (Nov 71).  This leads to a weird little period where although World took over from T&P 5 months after decimalisation, they were distributing pre-decimal PV's, where T&P had been distributing post-decimal CS's. They actually rolled decimalisation BACK.  (Not relevant, but I always wrongly think the World era was all post decimal). 

The key point comes during T&P's last hurrah, when they were distributing decimal stamped CS's and pre-decimal printed PV's of the same issues. 
The CS issues of the dual priced titles (the ones that had both PV’s and CS’s) changed in the exact same month as the titles which ONLY had CS’s.  If the CS’s were returns coming over later, there would have to have been a lag, so what you get is the CS’s which are ONLY CS’s changing to decimal at one moment, and the ones that are (allegedly) returns changing over 2 or 3 months later. 
Instead of which it’s absolutely in lock step, even including the month of August 1970, when the stamps were priced in both old and new money.  This will be easier with an example. 
Captain America has no PV’s, everything is stamped. 
#127  Cover date July 1970 = stamped 1/-
#128 Cover date Aug 1970 = stamped 1/- and 5p. 
#129 Cover date Sept 1970 = stamped 5p. 
Thor, on the other hand has both PV’s and CS’s, so let’s see if he mirrors Cap:
#178 Cover date July 1970 = stamped 1/-
#179 Cover date Aug 1970 = stamped 1/- and 5p.
#180 Cover date Sept 1970 = stamped 5p.
It’s exactly the same.  This tells you (I believe) that the CS’s which also have PV’s came over in the same month as all the other comics bearing the same cover date. If they had been true returns, they would have turned up 2 or 3 months later and been stamped 5p. 

The fact that that unique month of dual stamping literally only happened for one month tells you one thing: you had to be on Ethel's desk THAT MONTH to get that stamp. 

Cap 129 has a stamp, 6 5.

Could that be a US arrival date (June 5)?

Would be approx right for a Sept cover date.

[Malacoda]

On 10/7/2021 at 12:15 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Great stuff either way Rich - proving the dual aspect in that period is tres cool, and helps us further along the road of understanding. As a result of your analysis, we can now add a further factual statement to the history of Marvel in the UK, and one which may have escaped many, along with a whole load of new speculation conundrums. All good fun  

 

I also have some ideas about why it happened in the way it did and also 3 possible answers to your question about why Marvels went decimal at 6p rather than 5p.  We'll get this thread over 100 pages if it kills us!

[Malacoda]

On 10/7/2021 at 10:23 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Different for DC?

YES! I think this is really key. Would be good to know what was going on with other publishers too.  The fact that these are stamped with both old and new currency makes it seem likely they came in in different months.  Also, note that the September cover dated 403 has the dual stamp which we see on August Marvels. 

I mean, not even all the August ones of the same title have the dual stamp, so God knows what you can tell from it. 

 

[Malacoda]

On 10/7/2021 at 12:41 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

Cap 129 has a stamp, 6 5.

Could that be a US arrival date (June 5)?

Would be approx right for a Sept cover date.

It crossed my mind before that if I could find enough of the CS issues with date stamps on them and none on the concomitant PV's it might prove something, but what stamps there are are so chaotic and with so much variance and no proof of what they mean that I never got anywhere. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/7/2021 at 12:45 PM, Malacoda said:

 

I also have some ideas about why it happened in the way it did and also 3 possible answers to your question about why Marvels went decimal at 6p rather than 5p.  We'll get this thread over 100 pages if it kills us!

And it was only supposed to be brief 

On 10/7/2021 at 2:07 PM, Malacoda said:

It crossed my mind before that if I could find enough of the CS issues with date stamps on them and none on the concomitant PV's it might prove something, but what stamps there are are so chaotic and with so much variance and no proof of what they mean that I never got anywhere. 

Yes, it's a drag when that happens. Not enough examples to prove a point. That's why these things take years to establish.

On 10/7/2021 at 1:02 PM, Malacoda said:

YES! I think this is really key. Would be good to know what was going on with other publishers too.  The fact that these are stamped with both old and new currency makes it seem likely they came in in different months.  Also, note that the September cover dated 403 has the dual stamp which we see on August Marvels. 

I mean, not even all the August ones of the same title have the dual stamp, so God knows what you can tell from it. 

I think the stamp number plotting exercise I did showed a cover date to stamp misalignment between Marvel and DC and that maybe what is happening here Rich. Maybe the fact that the DCs were US returns has a bearing. But if we see Marvels with different stamp types on the same cents issues, does that not lean towards them being returns too? If the Marvel books bypassed any US sales attempt, would they not all arrive at the same time and carry the same stamp? Does the fact that you have some August Marvels with a 5p stamp and others of the same issue with a dual stamp indicate that they came staggered? My overall DC plotting exercise shows that the same issue can be spread across multiple number stamps (and therefore shipments) which we concluded was entirely consistent with a US returns process - not every US outlet would have returned their books to source at the same time.

My plotting exercise below also showed that Marvels arrived in batches - five years earlier than the time period we are looking at but an indication of how they were coming over which maybe continued through to the early 1970s?

If we believe in the sequential stamp cycle to shipment theory, then four consecutive issues of TOS arrived in that stamp 4 shipment. 

 

[Malacoda]

On 10/7/2021 at 2:36 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

But if we see Marvels with different stamp types on the same cents issues, does that not lean towards them being returns too? If the Marvel books bypassed any US sales attempt, would they not all arrive at the same time and carry the same stamp? Does the fact that you have some August Marvels with a 5p stamp and others of the same issue with a dual stamp indicate that they came staggered?

That's logical but I think the shilling / 5p stamp is an exception.  In the run up to D-Day, there was a convention that all shops displayed everything in both old money and new. Up to D-Day, they were shown with the old money first and the new money second, and then afterwards it flipped the other way round. 

It was perceived that this was a hard and fast rule or even law (part of the Decimal Currency Act of May 1969) but it wasn't, it was only guidance because of a widespread fear by a lot of people that they were going to get ripped off when the new money arrived. It therefore makes a lot of sense to me that T&P were dabbling in that first month with both formats, before ascertaining that they didn't actually have to display the old money. 

Given their predisposition for scooping up all the leftovers and either re-packaging them or re-distributing them to seaside towns months later, I imagine that they flipped to new currency as fast as possible, but had the dual stamps ready in case it turned out they were breaking the law. 

If there were issues with 1/- stamps and 6p stamps from Dec 71, I'd be doing a Scooby Doo double take, but of course there aren't because they're all PV's at 6p. 

I think DC may yield more possibilities than Marvel. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/7/2021 at 3:28 PM, Malacoda said:

I think DC may yield more possibilities than Marvel. 

I agree. Shame no one likes them.

It's a race by the way Rich, to the big 2K:

The same number of replies more or less, but only half as popular. It's that DC thing, you see... 

[Malacoda]

On 10/7/2021 at 3:34 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

I agree. Shame no one likes them.

It's a race by the way Rich, to the big 2K:

The same number of replies more or less, but only half as popular. It's that DC thing, you see... 

I can't tell if you're being ironic or not.  That other thread has generated far more views, but this one has generated nearly the same number of replies in one third of the time.  So I assume you're ripping into me and, of course, other Marvel fans generally. 💖 We can take it. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/7/2021 at 4:35 PM, Malacoda said:

I can't tell if you're being ironic or not.  That other thread has generated far more views, but this one has generated nearly the same number of replies in one third of the time.  So I assume you're ripping into me and, of course, other Marvel fans generally. 💖 We can take it. 

You're saying the man who is responsible for the Marvel thread and the majority of the posts in it is ripping into Marvel fans Rich? Now who's being ironic... 

[Malacoda]

On 10/7/2021 at 4:50 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

You're saying the man who is responsible for the Marvel thread and the majority of the posts in it is ripping into Marvel fans Rich? Now who's being ironic... 

Yeah, but come on, you're far more widely read and knowledgeable than the average Marvelite (which is me....I know jack about other publishers). 

So does this mean there's a whole other Marvel thread I have to read and post on now?  Dang. And worse yet, I've been propping up a DC-centric thread while there was a Marvel one right next door?  That said, you put 'Distribution' in the title of this one, so you might as well have put on fishnet stockings and winked straight at me.  This is my spiritual homeland. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/7/2021 at 5:09 PM, Malacoda said:

Yeah, but come on, you're far more widely read and knowledgeable than the average Marvelite (which is me....I know jack about other publishers). 

So does this mean there's a whole other Marvel thread I have to read and post on now?  Dang. And worse yet, I've been propping up a DC-centric thread while there was a Marvel one right next door?  That said, you put 'Distribution' in the title of this one, so you might as well have put on fishnet stockings and winked straight at me.  This is my spiritual homeland. 

Embrace your inner Charlton...

[Get Marwood & I]

[Malacoda]

On 10/7/2021 at 5:12 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Embrace your inner Charlton...

Like the saying goes: Make Mine.....Charlton.