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The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982)
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5,838 posts in this topic

On 12/23/2022 at 10:51 AM, Malacoda said:

On the bay today, and substantiating the US distribution date on Mike's.  

Don't worry....even I have no more to say about this comic. 

Silver Surfer 10 - Picture 1 of 1

Hi Malaconda. I've heard of this fabled "Mike's list" on these pages before. Is it available online?
 

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On 12/24/2022 at 9:47 PM, Redshade said:

Gulp! I'm almost sorry I asked.:highfive: Thanks.

It's a lot of info, gloriously well presented.  The on sale dates for comics are really key pieces of data. According to Steve, these are not absolutely gospel, not least because it lists a single on-sale date, but obviously the distribution across the US took a long time, so they were not on sale everywhere at the same time, and presumably not replaced on the shelves a month later, so one date can't possibly fit all. However, there are plenty of instances, really really many, where the on sale date on Mike's matches dates stamped (and sometimes written in pen) on the front covers of comics, so it's a pretty good indicator and can be trusted for every day matters, but if you were using it to prove a theory, you'd want corroboration.  

I'll leave it to guv'nor to voice any other notes of caution when he gets back from the North Pole. 

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On 12/24/2022 at 10:02 PM, Malacoda said:

it lists a single on-sale date, but obviously the distribution across the US took a long time, so they were not on sale everywhere at the same time

And of course this means that finding any reliable data regarding arrival in UK newsagents is about as likely as finding a unicorn in one's bath.

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On 12/24/2022 at 10:14 PM, Redshade said:

And of course this means that finding any reliable data regarding arrival in UK newsagents is about as likely as finding a unicorn in one's bath.

Never going to get that, though I imagine the difference between the 60's and 70's is also total. In the 60's, T&P distributed by their own network of reps who picked up from the midlands and traversed the country, delivering to newsagents one by one, keeping their stocks in local warehouses.  In the 70's, World used local hauliers to take massive shipments to local and national distributors who then distributed to newsagents with the daily papers and periodicals.  So, even if you had an arrival date for the shipment in the 60's, it could be a couple of weeks or more until they hit the spinners. I think if you had a date for delivery to World, you'd have a much tighter figure.  

Of course, the other thing I've never quite worked out is where the shipments got consolidated into cover months. In the States, they didn't, they were sent out 2 or 3 months in advance in weekly shipments, but here one thing we all remember pretty clearly is that each month's comics were THAT month's comics, which means that every month, half of the comics that arrived must have been stashed for 4 weeks until the rest of that month's cover date issues rocked up and they were all put together and sent out. 

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On 12/24/2022 at 10:42 PM, Malacoda said:

 

 but here one thing we all remember pretty clearly is that each month's comics were THAT month's comics, which means that every month, half of the comics that arrived must have been stashed for 4 weeks until the rest of that month's cover date issues rocked up and they were all put together and sent out. 

I've posited before that I think that this is the reason for T&Ps numbered date stamps, certainly in the earlier days before air freight became the norm. 

EDIT. ...numbered price stamps.

Edited by Redshade
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On 12/24/2022 at 10:50 PM, Redshade said:

I've posited before that I think that this is the reason for T&Ps numbered date stamps, certainly in the earlier days before air freight became the norm. 

I like this theory as it answers the mystery of why they had to stamp each individual comic, and why they didn't re-number the discounted sale comics when they re-priced them and why it didn't matter than the stamps only went up to 9 but I think there are some issues with it

1) How do we explain the bunching? (i.e. runs of issues all having the same stamp number). 

2) How do we explain the multi-batching ? (i.e. where we have examples of issues with 3  or 4 different stamp numbers). 

3) If that was what the stamps were for, why did the PV's not get stamped? They also had different release dates. 

4) It doesn't seem to match people's recollections i.e.  comics, especially DC's,  seemed to appear in the newsagents much more chaotically than this. 

5) Why do they stop? (the on-sale dates make it clear that each cover date was split into multiple release dates in the US long after the date stamp numbers disappear). 

6) How come they don't seem to be replaced by any other system that we can identify? 

7) How come they seem to fall into neat monthly patterns early on, but then descend into chaos later on. If the purpose was to identify a particular month, what purpose were they serving when EVERY number starting appearing every month?

8) If the date stamping is the answer to how they joined up the cover date months, how did they do it after the system ceased and how did Millers do it and how did World Distributors do it?  The system was only in place up to a point and never in place with other distributors, so even if it is for this purpose, it doesn't answer the question for most of the import period. 

I'd love this to be the answer because it solves 2 mysteries in one go, but I think there a quite a few other questions we have to answer for this to tick all the boxes. 

 

 

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On 12/24/2022 at 11:19 PM, Malacoda said:

I like this theory as it answers the mystery of why they had to stamp each individual comic, and why they didn't re-number the discounted sale comics when they re-priced them and why it didn't matter than the stamps only went up to 9 but I think there are some issues with it

1) How do we explain the bunching? (i.e. runs of issues all having the same stamp number). 

2) How do we explain the multi-batching ? (i.e. where we have examples of issues with 3  or 4 different stamp numbers). 

3) If that was what the stamps were for, why did the PV's not get stamped? They also had different release dates. 

4) It doesn't seem to match people's recollections i.e.  comics, especially DC's,  seemed to appear in the newsagents much more chaotically than this. 

5) Why do they stop? (the on-sale dates make it clear that each cover date was split into multiple release dates in the US long after the date stamp numbers disappear). 

6) How come they don't seem to be replaced by any other system that we can identify? 

7) How come they seem to fall into neat monthly patterns early on, but then descend into chaos later on. If the purpose was to identify a particular month, what purpose were they serving when EVERY number starting appearing every month?

8) If the date stamping is the answer to how they joined up the cover date months, how did they do it after the system ceased and how did Millers do it and how did World Distributors do it?  The system was only in place up to a point and never in place with other distributors, so even if it is for this purpose, it doesn't answer the question for most of the import period. 

I'd love this to be the answer because it solves 2 mysteries in one go, but I think there a quite a few other questions we have to answer for this to tick all the boxes. 

 

 

I started out answering this post point by point invoking the vagaries of both the (un)reliability of US distribution methods and ditto sea freightage etc but gave up as I realised that I was reprising previous discussions.

I'll just paraphrase my post above and go scuttling back to the undergrowth :

"And of course this means that finding any reliable data regarding arrival in UK newsagents The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982)is about as likely as finding a unicorn in one's bath".:wavingwhiteflag:

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On 12/24/2022 at 11:52 PM, Redshade said:

I'll just paraphrase my post above and go scuttling back to the undergrowth :

Dude! I absolutely wasn't trying to browbeat you there.  My apologies if it seemed that way.  As I said, I think it's a viable hypothesis, it just leaves a lot of other questions unanswered.  Likewise, I like Albert's theory that it was a signal to the newsagents telling them when the new comics should replace the old,  but again, there are some unanswered questions.  I have a theory of my own which actually raises more questions than it answers (34 so far, not joking), so when I finally nail it down, I will submit it and fully expect a light-to-moderate kicking from everyone on the board.  But please accept my apologies if it seemed like I was trying to shut you down - quite the reverse, I assure you. 

Merry Christmas.  

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On 12/25/2022 at 12:55 AM, Malacoda said:

Dude! I absolutely wasn't trying to browbeat you there.  My apologies if it seemed that way.  As I said, I think it's a viable hypothesis, it just leaves a lot of other questions unanswered.  Likewise, I like Albert's theory that it was a signal to the newsagents telling them when the new comics should replace the old,  but again, there are some unanswered questions.  I have a theory of my own which actually raises more questions than it answers (34 so far, not joking), so when I finally nail it down, I will submit it and fully expect a light-to-moderate kicking from everyone on the board.  But please accept my apologies if it seemed like I was trying to shut you down - quite the reverse, I assure you. 

Merry Christmas.  

Merry Christmas to you too.
I assure you that I was in no way feeling browbeaten or otherwise by your questions.
I was just cognisant of the fact that my intended answers were just reiterating ideas which had been expressed before in these pages and so decided to retire gently from the fray.

:)

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On 12/25/2022 at 12:55 AM, Malacoda said:

it was a signal to the newsagents telling them when the new comics should replace the old,  but again, there are some unanswered questions

If the resupply of the newsagents, etc, was carried out by a T & P rep using his own initiative, then the number on the stamp would be an indication to the rep, not to the shop proprietor.

There would be an incentive for the newsagent to keep his shelves clear of slow-moving stock. The more old material removed, the more room there would be for fresh stock, and as it was all SOR, the shopkeeper would be charged only for the difference between new stock added and old stock subtracted.

A win-win situation, except for the avid collector vainly trying to fill gaps more than a couple of months or so in the past.

I trawled all my local newsagents when I first started collecting, and was over the moon when I found a back issue that had somehow escaped the periodic weeding-out.

However, I do remember my uncle having comics and magazines bundled up ready for return, as it saved time. There would be some shopkeepers, maybe, who would rather let the salesman perform this chore.

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On 12/25/2022 at 12:55 AM, Malacoda said:

  I have a theory of my own which actually raises more questions than it answers (34 so far, not joking), so when I finally nail it down, I will submit it and fully expect a light-to-moderate kicking from everyone on the board. 

Come on then, let's have it. :popcorn:

 

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On 12/25/2022 at 7:30 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

There would be an incentive for the newsagent to keep his shelves clear of slow-moving stock. The more old material removed, the more room there would be for fresh stock, and as it was all SOR, the shopkeeper would be charged only for the difference between new stock added and old stock subtracted.

True, but I think also true: if there was room in the spinner rack, it made more sense for the T&P rep to leave it full albeit of older stock than to leave it empty (or to leave the newsagent the opportunity to fill a T&P rack with non T&P product) and secondly, I think some newsagents got re-stocked much more frequently than others.  I haven't fully mapped out T&P's sales regions, but some of the differences are striking. For instance, North Wales was part of the Lancashire sales region and the North Wales stock, such as it was, was stored in a 10ft by 30ft garage in Colwyn Bay.  The South Wales region was served by a dedicated Sales Manager operating from a massive T&P depot in Bridgend.  I would therefore imagine that the newsagents down south got a lot more frequent visits than the ones up North. 

Of course, we then have all the anecdotal evidence of people finding well-out-of-date comics in the southern resort towns, but that's the other conversation about comics being re-circulated for the holidaymakers.  

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On 12/25/2022 at 7:30 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

However, I do remember my uncle having comics and magazines bundled up ready for return, as it saved time. There would be some shopkeepers, maybe, who would rather let the salesman perform this chore.

I would think if you were a newsagent and it was quiet, you'd busy yourself with whatever chores needed doing, exactly as you say. 

Another point is, of course, that it depends which products the retailer was actually taking from the rep. In our tiny focus, we imagine it was just a van full of comics which needed to be switched out every month, but the T&P reps also sold tights & stockings, cards, toys, games, playing cards, gramophone records and other items that didn't expire, so the idea that the T&P rep had to turn up and replace all the stock every month is an idea you only form if you're a comic book nut (and you know what they're like).   

 

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On 12/25/2022 at 7:47 PM, Redshade said:

Come on then, let's have it. 

Patience, my friend. At the moment, it's a polo (massive hole in the middle), but when it's ready, it will answer all 34 questions, so I hope everyone will rally round and give the tyres a good kicking. 

 

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On 12/24/2022 at 10:02 PM, Malacoda said:

It's a lot of info, gloriously well presented.  The on sale dates for comics are really key pieces of data. According to Steve, these are not absolutely gospel, not least because it lists a single on-sale date, but obviously the distribution across the US took a long time, so they were not on sale everywhere at the same time, and presumably not replaced on the shelves a month later, so one date can't possibly fit all. However, there are plenty of instances, really really many, where the on sale date on Mike's matches dates stamped (and sometimes written in pen) on the front covers of comics, so it's a pretty good indicator and can be trusted for every day matters, but if you were using it to prove a theory, you'd want corroboration.  

Like the GCD, Mike's newsstand site is an absolute must have book mark for anyone trying to muck about with the placing of comics in a timeline. Mike's is an especially fabulous site, so helpful, and I'd buy the guy fifty cherryades in appreciation of all the help it has given me over the years as a starting template, were I to bump into him in a pub in Deptford. I think many of the 'on sale dates' are broadly reliable for the main publishers, and I've used them to good effect many times for Marvel and DC, but for the lesser collected ones, understandably, they can sometimes be a little off when matched to actual live examples (when you can find them). 

I wouldn't be without it, but if the house was on the line, as you say, I'd want to back up any 'which came first / when' scenarios with some live examples first. 

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