Combined investment will cause Golden Age (Collectors) to explode 3 3

[adamstrange]

38 minutes ago, tth2 said:

There are numerous storage facilities for high dollar items that legally sit in a customs no man's land in places like Switzerland, Singapore, etc. where billions of dollars of art and other items sit already. 

Is there a list of reliable brokers with the best prices?

Asking for a friend.

[lou_fine]

1 hour ago, tth2 said:

This is actually one of the least problematic parts of creating such a fund.  The ownership of the books would sit with a special purpose investment vehicle, which in turn could be owned by a trust or other ownership vehicle.  This is simple nuts and bolts for investment funds, ETFs, etc.

  Well then, how about some kind of central depository exchange whereby private collectors can send in some of their primo books like say a Church copy of Mystery Men 3 and then sell 1,000 shares at something like $100 a pop. 

Of course, the private collector would end up pocketing most of the proceeds plus having the option to retain as many shares of the book as desired, with the expenses and some kind of percentage profit going to the depository exchange.    

Edited July 26, 2020 by lou_fine

[Cat-Man_America]

9 hours ago, N e r V said:

To late guys. Looks like a boardie has been playing us all along  and is already on board the original  posters ship...
 

 

I wondered who was really paying for all those nice 9.6’s we see here...

 

 

Alas, I've relied on support from Eames Asset Management when I should've been diversifying.  

[valiantman]

On 7/25/2020 at 11:14 PM, adamstrange said:

Big keys seemed to have stalled a bit lately and are already at high value where each percent increase is incrementally harder to obtain. 

Could this fuel a bubble due to an initial wave of enthusiasm?  Yes.

Is this likely to be a long term change and important factor in the hobby?  Probably not.

Your two questions were also asked about CGC in the beginning, and the answer given to both was overwhelmingly "no". 

20 years later, we know the correct answer was actually "yes".

[D84]

5 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Your two questions were also asked about CGC in the beginning, and the answer given to both was overwhelmingly "no". 

20 years later, we know the correct answer was actually "yes".

How many shares did you buy?

[valiantman]

3 minutes ago, D84 said:

9 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Your two questions were also asked about CGC in the beginning, and the answer given to both was overwhelmingly "no". 

20 years later, we know the correct answer was actually "yes".

How many shares did you buy?

Shares of CGC?

This many...

,,, on one side of the aisle.

[adamstrange]

19 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Your two questions were also asked about CGC in the beginning, and the answer given to both was overwhelmingly "no". 

20 years later, we know the correct answer was actually "yes".

CGC was very quickly accepted by the dealers and many of the collectors. 

I was neutral personally but I correctly predicted that they would succeed and anticipated the direction it would take the hobby in.  I bought books in the first big auction featuring CGC books in 2001 and was slabbing and selling a few books on eBay by 2002.

[valiantman]

3 minutes ago, adamstrange said:

CGC was very quickly accepted by the dealers and many of the collectors. 

I was neutral personally but I correctly predicted that they would succeed and anticipated the direction it would take the hobby in.  I bought books in the first big auction featuring CGC books in 2001 and was slabbing and selling a few books on eBay by 2002.

It's 2020 and there are still collectors screaming "YOU CAN'T READ A COMIC IN A SLAB" the moment they hear what CGC is.  A tiny portion of this industry has adopted CGC, and GPAnalysis shows the volume last year was $120,000,000.

Imagine if you could buy/sell any dollar amount of any comic book from home, on your computer/phone.  

I'd love to be able to buy comic books at CGC 2001 and 2002 prices, but those first couple of years are long gone.

When the digital shares of comic books system exists, the first couple of years will look like CGC 2001 and 2002 bargains when we get to year 20.

[D84]

22 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Shares of CGC?

This many...

,,, on one side of the aisle.

You know that's not what I meant.

[valiantman]

8 minutes ago, D84 said:

You know that's not what I meant.

You're acting like I haven't thought about this much, or that I'm just some internet troll that doesn't have any idea what reality is.

I've been thinking about shared ownership of real-world items since I walked through a museum when I was a kid.  When I was a teenager in the 1980s, I asked "What if anyone could own a tiny bit of the Mona Lisa?"  The answers never satisfied me.  It should be possible.  We can own tiny bits of companies, tiny bits of real estate, tiny bits of cryptocurrency, but we can't own tiny bits of the things we actually collect?  That's dumb.  It will change.

I have over a thousand slabs because I am a comic collector, I have over a thousand slabs because I am a comic investor... but what I don't have is a tiny bit of Action Comics #1, and that's what I want.

Money will make it happen.

Not mine, not yours, but someone's money will build it... and people will come.

Action Comics #1 shares walking right out of the cornfield, ready to play ball.

[adamstrange]

14 minutes ago, valiantman said:

It's 2020 and there are still collectors screaming "YOU CAN'T READ A COMIC IN A SLAB" the moment they hear what CGC is.  A tiny portion of this industry has adopted CGC, and GPAnalysis shows the volume last year was $120,000,000.

The high end collectible comic business is almost entirely in slabs.  That there are lots of comics sold that people read is due to the fact that comics are produced to be read and people, for whatever silly reason, still seem to succumb to the temptation to do so. 

There also are loads of comics that are sold unslabbed due to the cost and turnaround time that make it economically unviable and the weight and storage space they take up.  These are constraints that currently limit the spread of slabbing even when there is no prejudice against them.

29 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Imagine if you could buy/sell any dollar amount of any comic book from home, on your computer/phone.  

If I was a speculator and the transaction costs were tiny, I might find that enjoyable and profitable.  In this case the transaction costs are high and I'm not a speculator, so it's irrelevant to me.  That does not mean that I haven't thought about such a business -- I have.  I've been paying attention since the 70s so I understand the history of a variety of such schemes.

Neither am I saying that it can't be successful.  Marvel sold stock back in the 90s and collectors snatched them up.  Most of them held on too long and it didn't end well but some did fine.  This particular company's scheme may be successful in the short term but I wouldn't bet on it in the long term.

[valiantman]

RallyRd, as the specific solution the concept, doesn't concern me.  Maybe it's RallyRd, maybe it's someone else.  Maybe it's a group of people right here from this board.

But, someday, I'll be able to say - "Here's $100 - I can buy stock, bonds, cryptocurrency, ETFs, or Action Comics #1", and I know which one I'll pick.  The only one I can't buy today. 

[Cat-Man_America]

8 minutes ago, valiantman said:

It's 2020 and there are still collectors screaming "YOU CAN'T READ A COMIC IN A SLAB" the moment they hear what CGC is.  A tiny portion of this industry has adopted CGC, and GPAnalysis shows the volume last year was $120,000,000.

Imagine if you could buy/sell any dollar amount of any comic book from home, on your computer/phone.  

I'd love to be able to buy comic books at CGC 2001 and 2002 prices, but those first couple of years are long gone.

When the digital shares of comic books system exists, the first couple of years will look like CGC 2001 and 2002 bargains when we get to year 20.

Where do I start.  If you’re collecting current books, there’s little reason to holder them unless they’re signed. In fact, this is probably the case for 90% of comics published over the last 20 years or rather since the widespread acceptance of encapsulation.  It’s an old story, but the rationale for third party grading increased as the speculative values of comic books increased in the 90’s, with undisclosed restoration being the catalyst.  Restoration to bolster the apparent grade for profit was too commonly done on GA and SA books in the 80’s and 90’s.  Disclosure was the impediment to trust of the hobby and encapsulation provided the cure.  Markets responded very positively.

In respect to the actual reading of old comics, very few collectors paying big bucks for a desired grail are going to crack it out to read.  This is especially true if the book is in grade.  If that’s the ultimate desire, the collector would simply buy cheaper poor grade books or reprints.  In some cases, they do both cracking out under-copies to read.  As for how large a slice of the industry adopted third party grading, that’s open to debate, but grading and encapsulation services provide a much needed professionalism and trust to the collector hobby,

Digital shares of comics as a system is unlikely to be a commonplace activity for many years ...if ever... because it will only be of interest to a certain category of speculators targeting specific key books.  For instance, there’s nothing new about dealers pooling resources to buy percentages of very hot speculative books like Action #1, ‘Tec #27, Marvel #1, etc., and splitting the proceeds of the sale.  However, the books that command that level of all-in investment are limited to maybe a dozen or so high demand books ...and that guesstimate is probably on the high side.

Collectors can still buy GA comics at prices not too distantly removed from 2000 and 2001 price points after adjusting for inflation.  Of course, a lot depends on where you set your goals grade-wise and what books you’re jonesing to collect.

I’ll close this with a subjective view of comic analysis.  Trends are difficult to predict because so many variables can be involved in market fluctuation.  I dropped GPA years ago and would never rely on them because they are too closely tied to one grading service.  I’m sure GPA is reputable as far as it goes, but this preference bias always seemed like a conflict of interest.  All I’m saying is that if one is involved in book speculation, there are other more independent analytical services out there.  Finally, when focusing on fluctuating auction prices it’s always a good idea to remember that it’s a game of musical chairs between the last two bidders standing.

Blame the length of this post on coffee, ...but it is getting closer to ale time! 

[valiantman]

3 minutes ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Where do I start.  If you’re collecting current books, there’s little reason to holder them unless they’re signed. In fact, this is probably the case for 90% of comics published over the last 20 years or rather since the widespread acceptance of encapsulation.  It’s an old story, but the rationale for third party grading increased as the speculative values of comic books increased in the 90’s, with undisclosed restoration being the catalyst.  Restoration to bolster the apparent grade for profit was too commonly done on GA and SA books in the 80’s and 90’s.  Disclosure was the impediment to trust of the hobby and encapsulation provided the cure.  Markets responded very positively.

In respect to the actual reading of old comics, very few collectors paying big bucks for a desired grail are going to crack it out to read.  This is especially true if the book is in grade.  If that’s the ultimate desire, the collector would simply buy cheaper poor grade books or reprints.  In some cases, they do both cracking out under-copies to read.  As for how large a slice of the industry adopted third party grading, that’s open to debate, but grading and encapsulation services provide a much needed professionalism and trust to the collector hobby,

Digital shares of comics as a system is unlikely to be a commonplace activity for many years ...if ever... because it will only be of interest to a certain category of speculators targeting specific key books.  For instance, there’s nothing new about dealers pooling resources to buy percentages of very hot speculative books like Action #1, ‘Tec #27, Marvel #1, etc., and splitting the proceeds of the sale.  However, the books that command that level of all-in investment are limited to maybe a dozen or so high demand books ...and that guesstimate is probably on the high side.

Collectors can still buy GA comics at prices not too distantly removed from 2000 and 2001 price points after adjusting for inflation.  Of course, a lot depends on where you set your goals grade-wise and what books you’re jonesing to collect.

I’ll close this with a subjective view of comic analysis.  Trends are difficult to predict because so many variables can be involved in market fluctuation.  I dropped GPA years ago and would never rely on them because they are too closely tied to one grading service.  I’m sure GPA is reputable as far as it goes, but this preference bias always seemed like a conflict of interest.  All I’m saying is that if one is involved in book speculation, there are other more independent analytical services out there.  Finally, when focusing on fluctuating auction prices it’s always a good idea to remember that it’s a game of musical chairs between the last two bidders standing.

Blame the length of this post on coffee, ...but it is getting closer to ale time! 

That's all valid, but it doesn't explain why a digital system for buying shares in real-world assets (specifically collectibles, comics, cards, coins, cars, and other letters besides 'c') wouldn't be immensely popular among a segment of collectors.

I probably own 1,000 different Superman items, from slabs to cards to toys to posters to magazines to clothing to original art to domains (yep) to headphones, but I don't have $1 invested in Action Comics #1.  I would, though, if I could.  More than $1, even. 

If there are 10 collectors with $100,000 to spend, then they can coordinate themselves and buy a $1,000,000 book, and I'm sure they do from time to time. 

But if you only need $10 to join in, anytime, from anywhere on Earth, we'll be buying multiple $1,000,000 books with just the attendance numbers of the San Diego Comic-Con.

[MrBedrock]

5 minutes ago, valiantman said:

I probably own 1,000 different Superman items, from slabs to cards to toys to posters to magazines to clothing to original art to domains (yep) to headphones, but I don't have $1 invested in Action Comics #1.  I would, though, if I could.  More than $1, even. 

 

How about I hook you up with an Action #1 owner and you can give him/her how ever much you want to for the privilege of saying you are part owner of an Action #1?

[fifties]

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

Shares of CGC?

This many...

,,, on one side of the aisle.

Well, to each his own.  I just don't understand the value of slabbing and storing in this manner.  You not only can't read the books, but can't even see the covers at a glance.

I read some of my books every evening.  I consider the "investment" value to be in the entertainment they give me.  I'll never liquidate them, beyond occasionally upgrading a book now and then.  When I got back into collecting, I never considered price appreciation, and frankly still don't.

[bc]

6 minutes ago, valiantman said:

But if you only need $10 to join in, anytime, from anywhere on Earth, we'll be buying multiple $1,000,000 books with just the attendance numbers of the San Diego Comic-Con.

I know someone here tracks all the record sales prices, but how many $1 million+ books are there? Think a safe bet is currently less than 10..and that goes back to what MrB was stating earlier about the size of the potential market cap vs the potential profit for a long-term, non-dividend yielding investment vehicle.

Maybe this concept applies better to other forms of high-end collectibles that have 1,000s of examples of big sales numbers (like cars).

[valiantman]

31 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

40 minutes ago, valiantman said:

I probably own 1,000 different Superman items, from slabs to cards to toys to posters to magazines to clothing to original art to domains (yep) to headphones, but I don't have $1 invested in Action Comics #1.  I would, though, if I could.  More than $1, even. 

 

How about I hook you up with an Action #1 owner and you can give him/her how ever much you want to for the privilege of saying you are part owner of an Action #1?

Yes, please. 

We'll worry about 1,000,000 other fans with $1 later.  Me first. 

[valiantman]

31 minutes ago, fifties said:

2 hours ago, valiantman said:

Shares of CGC?

This many...

,,, on one side of the aisle.

Well, to each his own.  I just don't understand the value of slabbing and storing in this manner.  You not only can't read the books, but can't even see the covers at a glance.

The books are digital for reading... and for viewing the covers.  I've scanned every single slab, front and back.  I have a "gallery" that only I know how to find... but I can pull up any book in seconds.

For instance...

That took me 15 seconds to find. 

[fifties]

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

The books are digital for reading... and for viewing the covers.  I've scanned every single slab, front and back.  I have a "gallery" that only I know how to find... but I can pull up any book in seconds.

For instance...

That took me 15 seconds to find. 

Like I posted, to each his own.  I too can pull up any book in actually less than 15 seconds.  There are sites that offer reading all but EC & DC books, and I'll go to those to review the contents of a book before I consider to make an offer on it, but that's the extent of the reading on-line value to me.  ain't nothin' like actually paging through a comic book, the feel, the smell, etc.