Did Stan Lee use a ghost writer?? 2 2

[kustomizer]

2 hours ago, Joe Ankenbauer said:

The story that I read about most often is that Stan Lee thought Jack Kirby's version of Spider-Man looked "too heroic". So the book was given to Steve Ditko. Is the gospel truth? We'll never really know now.

Stan's story about Kirby's Spidey looking too heroic falls apart when you look at the covers he decided to use for both AF#15 and ASM#1.

[Math Teacher]

1 hour ago, kustomizer said:

Stan's story about Kirby's Spidey looking too heroic falls apart when you look at the covers he decided to use for both AF#15 and ASM#1.

But I think it was done before the Ditko version and was intended for Amazing Fantasy #15 before Kirby was either taken off the project or opted off doing it.

It was probably supposed to have been part of Spidey's origin story. Stan Lee most likely just wanted to print the seemingly pointless Kirby version in FF Annual #1 as he would have already paid Kirby for the work.

Interestingly, Kirby had also drawn the cover of Amazing Spider-Man #1, although Ditko drew them all (except #10) after that.

As mentioned in the italicized portion, maybe Stan just didn't want to pay to have the cover of Amazing Spider-Man #1 redone. If you have ever looked at Ditko's version of the cover of Amazing Fantasy #15, Kirby's version vs. Ditko's version are very different. Also, another story I have heard is that Stan rejected Ditko's cover because he didn't like to see the undersides of Spider-Man's feet.

I am not citing either of my accounts as "the Gospel truth". I am just relying on what I have read/heard.

[kustomizer]

2 hours ago, Joe Ankenbauer said:

But I think it was done before the Ditko version and was intended for Amazing Fantasy #15 before Kirby was either taken off the project or opted off doing it.

It was probably supposed to have been part of Spidey's origin story. Stan Lee most likely just wanted to print the seemingly pointless Kirby version in FF Annual #1 as he would have already paid Kirby for the work.

Interestingly, Kirby had also drawn the cover of Amazing Spider-Man #1, although Ditko drew them all (except #10) after that.

As mentioned in the italicized portion, maybe Stan just didn't want to pay to have the cover of Amazing Spider-Man #1 redone. If you have ever looked at Ditko's version of the cover of Amazing Fantasy #15, Kirby's version vs. Ditko's version are very different. Also, another story I have heard is that Stan rejected Ditko's cover because he didn't like to see the undersides of Spider-Man's feet.

I am not citing either of my accounts as "the Gospel truth". I am just relying on what I have read/heard.

Yes, Kirby's cover for AF#15 is far more heroic and dynamic than Ditko's much funkier version (which is still pretty awesome). But I wonder why Stan went with the more heroic version if that's the image he was trying to avoid?

[Math Teacher]

5 hours ago, kustomizer said:

Yes, Kirby's cover for AF#15 is far more heroic and dynamic than Ditko's much funkier version (which is still pretty awesome). But I wonder why Stan went with the more heroic version if that's the image he was trying to avoid?

Alas, we'll never know now.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Joe Ankenbauer

[kustomizer]

Would have great if there'd been an interview with Stan, Jack and Steve in the same room at some point.

[kustomizer]

6 hours ago, kustomizer said:

 

Anyone else ever notice how much the guy at the bottom left of the Ditko cover looks like Martin Goodman? Goodman supposedly told Stan a book about a spider man would never sell.

[Keys_Collector]

I think your tin foil hat may have come loose and you let in way too many of those 5G signals.

[N e r V]

10 hours ago, kustomizer said:

Yes, Kirby's cover for AF#15 is far more heroic and dynamic than Ditko's much funkier version (which is still pretty awesome). But I wonder why Stan went with the more heroic version if that's the image he was trying to avoid?

Stan had issues at times with a books cover layout. A number of Kirby covers didn’t make the cut either. The Kirby version was the better layout between the two for newsstands. It’s not that surprising is it? It was discussed by him in the past. The Spider-Man covers that were by Kirby and used are a bit toned down if you’ve seen his other drawings of the character which I’m sure made a difference. Some of his drawings of Spider-Man were pretty rough. Kirby was better most of the time with cover layouts which is why Stan wanted some others to try and copy that “dynamic action” aspect of Kirby but even he had rejects by Stan at times.

[Unca Ben]

6 hours ago, Keys_Collector said:

I think your tin foil hat may have come loose and you let in way too many of those 5G signals.

Yep.  Revisionist history at its worst.

Kirby brought Stan a few pages of his first Spider-Man story which was very similar to Simon & Kirby's the Fly.  Stan rejected this version.
Stan then gave the project to Ditko, who designed the costume and drew the AF15 story.
Stan did not like Ditko's submitted cover, so he had Kirby re-do it.  This was after he gave the Spidey project to Ditko.

Kirby's memory was all over the place in some interviews, contradicting himself more than once.  He was clearly angry at times.  If Kirby created Spidey and his costume, that goes against what Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, and Eric Stanton (among others) have all said. 

Look at Spidey and see if he resembles other Kirby creations or Ditko creations.

When Kirby's Spidey was inked by Ditko, it looked okay.  Ditko corrected things while inking.  When Kirby was inked by someone other than Ditko, it looked a mess, like Strange tales Ann 2 cover and TTA 57 cover.
Kirby could never get the webbing patterns or details right (see covers of ST An 2, ASM 10, TTA 57).    No chest symbol in ST Annual.  No big red back spider symbol on TTA 57.
If Kirby designed Spidey's costume, then why did he leave out so many important details when he drew it later on, and have such problems with the webbing?

Kirby had obvious difficulty drawing Spidey, so if Spider-Man and his costume were Kirby's creation, then why was this so?

 

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Unca Ben

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/25/2020 at 6:00 AM, Unca Ben said:

Yep.  Revisionist history at its worst.

Kirby brought Stan a few pages of his first Spider-Man story which was very similar to Simon & Kirby's the Fly.  Stan rejected this version.
Stan then gave the project to Ditko, who designed the costume and drew the AF15 story.
Stan did not like Ditko's submitted cover, so he had Kirby re-do it.  This was after he gave the Spidey project to Ditko.

Kirby's memory was all over the place in some interviews, contradicting himself more than once.  He was clearly angry at times.  If Kirby created Spidey and his costume, that goes against what Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, and Eric Stanton (among others) have all said. 

Look at Spidey and see if he resembles other Kirby creations or Ditko creations.

When Kirby's Spidey was inked by Ditko, it looked okay.  Ditko corrected things while inking.  When Kirby was inked by someone other than Ditko, it looked a mess, like Strange tales Ann 2 cover and TTA 57 cover.
Kirby could never get the webbing patterns or details right (see covers of ST An 2, ASM 10, TTA 57).    No chest symbol in ST Annual.  No big red back spider symbol on TTA 57.
If Kirby designed Spidey's costume, then why did he leave out so many important details when he drew it later on, and have such problems with the webbing?

Kirby had obvious difficulty drawing Spidey, so if Spider-Man and his costume were Kirby's creation, then why was this so?

 

 

Interesting but strange subject this one, of course Spider-Man was co-created by Lee and Ditko. In fairness Ditko also had trouble to keep the webbing on his costume consistent. In practically every panel there was a mistake with the webbing going the opposite way on the left and right gloves and boots. Compare both of his gloves on the cover of ASM #2 the first one of Ditko, the webs are in opposite directions. This problem continues throughout the issue. Likewise for issue #3. There's even a full-page pinup in that issue where Ditko gets it wrong on the gloves again. Also, Spider-Man's "belt" has either one or two horizontal weblines depending on the panel. Maybe this goes on all the way to his last issue but I don't have all day : )

So the inability to keep the webs consistent is not a good argument against Kirby but I think Kirby was just not expressing himself properly about creating the costume.

[Garystar]

There's a good history of Spider-man's creation in this magazine by Greg Theakston. In summary the idea of a super hero called spiderman was Joe Simon's (Jack's partner) in 1953. He didn't like the name and revised it to the Silver Spider. His draft pages were rejected as the concept was too much like Captain Marvel but years later he gave them to Jack Kirby who worked them and the character became the Fly. By 1962 Jack was at Marvel, Stan asked Jack if he had any ideas for new super heroes and Jack mentioned Joe's character Spiderman/Silver Spider. Stan liked the name and asked Jack to go away and do a few pages, Jack came back with the pages - a small boy who would transform by means of a magic ring into a heroic figure with a web pistol. Stan rejected the concept but liked the name Spiderman so gave the project with a few ideas how he wanted it to be and an origin to Steve Ditko. Steve went away and came back with the Spider-man we know from Amazing Fantasy #15. So Spider-man created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko based on ideas by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby. (No mention of Joan Lee);

[Ameri]

On 9/22/2020 at 9:25 PM, KCOComics said:

I know the guy who runs Tellshiar.com 

He collects marvel memorabile has some really cool stuff. I wonder if he discovered the Ben Cooper catalog? 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1954-SPIDERMAN-BEN-COOPER-COSTUME-Pre-Amazing-Fantasy-15-MMMS-Marvelmania/124351597610?hash=item1cf3eecc2a:g:yHQAAOSwDa1fbT1P

[KCOComics]

2 hours ago, Ameri said:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1954-SPIDERMAN-BEN-COOPER-COSTUME-Pre-Amazing-Fantasy-15-MMMS-Marvelmania/124351597610?hash=item1cf3eecc2a:g:yHQAAOSwDa1fbT1P

That is pretty cool! 

[Terry E. Gibbs]

On 9/24/2020 at 9:02 PM, kustomizer said:

Would have great if there'd been an interview with Stan, Jack and Steve in the same room at some point.

Would be better with Stan, Steve and Roz Kirby 

[StreetPreacher]

Only on his more recent work.

[Aman619]

On 9/24/2020 at 1:21 AM, kustomizer said:

Yes, Kirby's cover for AF#15 is far more heroic and dynamic than Ditko's much funkier version (which is still pretty awesome). But I wonder why Stan went with the more heroic version if that's the image he was trying to avoid?

The 2 versions by Kirby and Ditko really can’t be compared fairly in color because were polored at different times and for different uses. Kirbys was treated seriously as it was to actually be published as the cover of a new comic.  But ditkos, having been killed and only appeared years later as a fun filler page in an annual just got colored as such, ending up brighter and less serious.  Years ago I imagined what Ditkos cover might have looked like if given the same feel as Kirbys did. 

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by Aman619

[Steven Valdez]

9 hours ago, Aman619 said:

The 2 versions by Kirby and Ditko really can’t be compared fairly in color because were polored at different times and for different uses. Kirbys was treated seriously as it was to actually be published as the cover of a new comic.  But ditkos, having been killed and only appeared years later as a fun filler page in an annual just got colored as such, ending up brighter and less serious.  Years ago I imagined what Ditkos cover might have looked like if given the same feel as Kirbys did. 

 

Nice job! That looks really good. The Ditko cover is fine, and really is more dynamic than Kirby's. Ditko just makes some mistakes with the webbing around the chest, and the boot webbing is curving in the wrong direction.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Steven Valdez

[Aman619]

thanx.  I have issues with some of Ditkos choices, like, do we need the guy in the window? In order to fit him in, looks like Spidey will crash into the building!  And Kirbys viewpoint is looking upward which is more heroic, whereas In Ditko's we are looking downward at him.  But side by side with same graphics and color palette its closer to a tossup to me.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Aman619

[piper]

22 minutes ago, Aman619 said:

thanx.  I have issues with some of Ditkos choices, like, do we need the guy in the window? In order to fit him in, looks like Spidey will crash into the building!  And Kirbys viewpoint is looking upward which is more heroic, whereas In Ditko's we are looking downward at him.  But side by side with same graphics and color palette its closer to a tossup to me.

I’m glad they went with the Kirby cover.

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/24/2020 at 11:18 PM, Keys_Collector said:

I think your tin foil hat may have come loose and you let in way too many of those 5G signals.

That's ad hominem, try coming up with a logical and respectful argument instead.