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Population Report Tool
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Started by PokeCharles,

222 posts in this topic

_Jut_

_Jut_

Posted
Posted (edited)

With the recent investigation by Karl Jobst into market manipulation (exposing fraud and deception by auction houses and grading companies) i think it is more important than ever for CGC to publish a pop report. 

There is no discernible reason for keeping population reports hidden. Cgc has been grading since 2009, so 'we're working on a population report' (for what? Two years?), raises serious concerns. Again, there is NO discernible reason that cgc can not provide any details as to the population of the cards they grade.

Saying 'these things take time' is not a valid reason. These things do not take this much time...especially if you are actually working on it.

The two biggest card grading companies for pokemon for the last year, during its largest ever influx of cards being graded, are PSA and CGC. PSA isn't taking cards, but CGC is happy to grade all those cards that would have gone to PSA...only they arnt saying how many there are.

CGC 10s have moved to take a premium over PSA 10s, as manny people are under the impression the CGC is a harsher grader. But guess what...you have NO idea how manny 10s CGC gives out.

The lack of transparency is not good enough.

Its concerning, and anyone reading this should be concerned as well.

Its time to produce CGC

Edited by _Jut_
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Bird

Bird

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 8/24/2021 at 11:01 PM, _Jut_ said:

With the recent investigation by Karl Jobst into market manipulation (exposing fraud and deception by auction houses and grading companies) i think it is more important than ever for CGC to publish a pop report. 

 

There is no discernible resone for keeping population reports hidden. Cgc has been grading since 2009, so 'we're working on a population report' (for what? Two years?), raise serious concerns. Again, there is NO discernible reason that cgc can not provide any details as to the population of the cards they grade.

Saying 'these things take time' is not a valid reason. These things do not take this much time...especially if you are actually working on it.

Its time to produce CGC

this is the trading card section

cgc has a census for comics graded since 2009, it is a few clicks away starting at the top of this very page

 

Edited by Bird
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_Jut_

_Jut_

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 8/25/2021 at 11:04 AM, Bird said:

this is the trading card section

cgc has a census for comics graded since 2009, it is a few clicks away starting at the top of this very page

 

Hi, can you please tell me how many cgc 9.5 base set charizards have been graded?

No, I don't think you can...because cgc is not going to tell you.

Do you think this sort of thing is only happening in video games? Have you been watching what happened to PWCC?

Furthermore, comics since 2009 you say? Well I guess they should know what they are doing by now, plenty of experience with the comic population reports. They have been happily grading cards for over a year now and still no pop report. Over a year, and that's assuming they hadn't even bothered looking into publishing a pop report when they started grading.

And for transparency on my end, I actually stand to gain by people not knowing how rare my cgc cards actually are. It might be financial good for most people here, even funny for some (below), but I don't like it when people are getting taken advantage of. Its gross.

Edited by _Jut_
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kreativemente

kreativemente

Posted
Posted
On 8/24/2021 at 11:10 PM, _Jut_ said:

Hi, can you please tell me how many cgc 9.5 base set charizards have been graded?

No, I don't think you can...because cgc is not going to tell you.

Do you think this sort of thing is only happening in video games? Have you been watching what happened to PWCC?

Furthermore, comics since 2009 you say? Well I guess they should know what they are doing by now, plenty of experience with the comic population reports. They have been happily grading cards for over a year now and still no pop report. Over a year, and that's assuming they hadn't even bothered looking into publishing a pop report when they started grading.

And for transparency on my end, I actually stand to gain by people not knowing how rare my cgc cards actually are. It might be financial good for most people here, even funny for some (below), but I don't like it when people are getting taken advantage of. Its gross.

Do we know how long it took PSA or BGS to first release a pop report the first time??

Im not disagreeing with you, they clearly have the data since we can look up our on certs. But Im guessing they haven't gotten a good frontend up yet for it. As I haven't seen any frontend website upgrades at all since the big boom last year.

IDK Maybe Im just not pressed for a pop report that bad since Im not really a big seller. Hope we get it soon though

 

I also dont think CGC is harsher. They just have higher grades over a 10. There are a ton of 9.5's and PSA 10s equally of these modern cards. Both Gem Mint just a different number on their respective scales, PSA just doesn't recognize more pristine versions of 10s

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_Jut_

_Jut_

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 8/27/2021 at 2:51 AM, kreativemente said:

Do we know how long it took PSA or BGS to first release a pop report the first time??

Im not disagreeing with you, they clearly have the data since we can look up our on certs. But Im guessing they haven't gotten a good frontend up yet for it. As I haven't seen any frontend website upgrades at all since the big boom last year.

IDK Maybe Im just not pressed for a pop report that bad since Im not really a big seller. Hope we get it soon though

 

I also dont think CGC is harsher. They just have higher grades over a 10. There are a ton of 9.5's and PSA 10s equally of these modern cards. Both Gem Mint just a different number on their respective scales, PSA just doesn't recognize more pristine versions of 10s

I can't speculate on how CGC might be able to manipulate buyers of there perfect 10s while having no pop report, but I can say there is opportunity there. Particularly in cards not fleshed out by PSA (modern, unlimited). The prices of unfleshed out cards have seen massive upticks, take jungle eve for example (not rare in any way, low pop, massive spike in prices).

I firmly believe that the majority of those cards have come through CGC, and people paying these prices wouldn't pay this much if they knew the population. People need pop reports to understand the rarity of unfleshedout cards and CGC is not providing this information...why.

 

Thank you for your comment, I do appreciate it. I'm just passionate about this topic.

Edited by _Jut_
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kreativemente

kreativemente

Posted
Posted
On 8/26/2021 at 8:47 PM, _Jut_ said:

I can't speculate on how CGC might be able to manipulate buyers of there perfect 10s while having no pop report, but I can say there is opportunity there. Particularly in cards not fleshed out by PSA (modern, unlimited). The prices of unfleshed out cards have seen massive upticks, take jungle eve for example (not rare in any way, low pop, massive spike in prices).

I firmly believe that the majority of those cards have come through CGC, and people paying these prices wouldn't pay this much if they knew the population. People need pop reports to understand the rarity of unfleshedout cards and CGC is not providing this information...why.

 

Thank you for your comment, I do appreciate it. I'm just passionate about this topic.

Oooooh, Are you suggesting that CGC themselves are manipulating prices?? You're not speculating, but how exactly does that work?? I wasn't aware of CGC selling cards or selling services to get a specific grade.

 

Unless I totally misunderstood the post 😅

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_Jut_

_Jut_

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 8/28/2021 at 12:25 AM, kreativemente said:

Oooooh, Are you suggesting that CGC themselves are manipulating prices?? You're not speculating, but how exactly does that work?? I wasn't aware of CGC selling cards or selling services to get a specific grade.

 

Unless I totally misunderstood the post 😅

The same way WATA (may) have done it (in my opinion), or anyone with enough capital could do it (as there is no pop report). Refer investigation by Karl for details.

There might be a policy that says something like 'CGC employees can't sell or buy CGC graded cards'...well WATA does too, and it appears that's what WATA was engaging in at its highest levels for graded video games (rules just being a front).

The reason why this works is because there is a lack of information with regard to rarity (WATA has no pop report, just like CGC). Hiding the pop report is not effective for cards that are fleshed out (ie. All the cards that collectors were grading with PSA for years, which are a different thing). Like I said before, low pop (new or nobody graded because it wasn't rare). Those cards, believe it or not, are selling for very high amounts in 10s/perfect 10s. I would argue that they sell for more than PSA cards (specifically the cards without a fleshed out pop report in CGC 10s).

I came back into the pokemon hobby about 2 years ago and since then I've heard about trimmed cards by PSA (allegedly), trimmed cards by psa being knowingly sold by PWCC (allegedly, as I believe the FBI is or was investigating this), PWCC being accused of shill bidding by eBay, and Karls investigation into WATA directly manipulating the graded video game market in conjunction with heritage auctions (no pop report being instrumental for this to occur). So when I see a company that is as well organised as CGC, primed right at the hype of the popkemon boom, not release pop report (but have no issues with AI, QR codes to online data bases) for no real reason...well...its concerning

But at the end of the day, maybe im just an insufficiently_thoughtful_person who doesn't know the first thing about market manipulation.

Edited by _Jut_
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Ron Churches

Ron Churches

Posted
Posted

The lack of a pop report is absolutely a strategic decision CGC has made at this point.

I think the above reasons are feasible. I think one factor could also be that we'd have easier access to data on their grading capacity. Folks watch the PSA pop reports to easily quantify how many cards are being graded. CGC may want this figure to be obscured, for strategic reasons. I wonder if anyone has taken a crack at figuring out how many cards are being graded by collecting data from the imaging URLs? I'm sure those URLs could be scraped and tallied.

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kreativemente

kreativemente

Posted
Posted
On 8/30/2021 at 1:26 PM, Ron Churches said:

The lack of a pop report is absolutely a strategic decision CGC has made at this point.

I think the above reasons are feasible. I think one factor could also be that we'd have easier access to data on their grading capacity. Folks watch the PSA pop reports to easily quantify how many cards are being graded. CGC may want this figure to be obscured, for strategic reasons. I wonder if anyone has taken a crack at figuring out how many cards are being graded by collecting data from the imaging URLs? I'm sure those URLs could be scraped and tallied.

I was thinking about this as well (The scraping portion). I may take a crack at this one my free weekends. The difficult part is pin pointing the cert numbers. As it seems to be shared with the comics as well. Will report back in a few weeks once I have some real time. 

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Fiacs0.o

Fiacs0.o

Posted
Posted (edited)

Put it this way, if they WANTED a pop report for trading cards, they would already have one.

We have a brand new grading company that just popped up in Australia that would have to be insignificant capital-wise in comparison to CGC, and they came out with a pop report AT LAUNCH.

With every card being catalogued/barcoded already, you cannot convince me that it's too big of a job for anybody worth their salt in coding.

Edited by Fiacs0.o
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_Jut_

_Jut_

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 8/28/2021 at 12:25 AM, kreativemente said:

Are you suggesting that CGC themselves are manipulating 

Co-founder/executive team member of WATA (allegedly), Mark Haspel, was president and primary grader of CGC and has been working in a professional capacity with cgc since 2014. My understanding is that this is the person alleged to have been selling WATA graded games on his eBay account while in his position at WATA. I just want to be clear, this is just what I've read online at a quick glance, so if anyone (from cgc or otherwise) would like to provide any clarification it would be greatly appreciated.

Details of the extent to which Mark was allegedly buying, grading, selling his own WATA graded games in the yt link below.

Seems viable (to me at least), that Mark or anyone else within CGC would have the capacity to use the same tactics used for WATA graded games, no pop report being instrumental for this to occur in the first place.

 

Edit: changes to wording for benefit of the doubt until/if clarification is provided

Edited by _Jut_
Was* president
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Mike Davies

Mike Davies

Posted
Posted (edited)

All this sense of entitlement and demanding....

Inject it in my veins.

 

The pop report will come when it comes, given the exponential influx in submissions CGC have had do you not think that the majority of their resource is consumed by keeping lead times as low as possible and supporting their existing infrastructure, nevermind trying to implement a new system for the pop report.

A staggered approach wouldn't work. Fists will be banged on tables otherwise.

An initial basic report won't work. Fists will be banged on tables.

It's a case of get it done right and first time. Who knows where it is in the development cycle, but I'm glad they aren't saying so to give people unrealistic expectations. We know they are working on it, that should be good enough. If they were to say its in testing then people would expect an imminent launch, yet in sys dev, the biggest phase is stress testing, correction, retesting, recorrection as a continued cycle. 

And they can't just recruit extra resource to immediately deliver. Think of proper recruitment processes. Assessing the fitness and proprierty of all prospective employees. Induction programmes, training, systems introduction. All of this takes TIME.

Advice for those feeling the rage:

1. Be patient;

2. CGC owe you nothing, when you paid for your subs you didn't pay for a pop report, you paid for your card to be professionally assessed and encased. 

:)

Edited by Mike Davies
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Elliott329

Elliott329

Posted
Posted
On 8/19/2021 at 3:02 PM, Shockmaster said:

Any news on the population report and registry yet?

Or at least have something out there covering Alpha, Beta & Unlimited for Magic and 1st Edition for Pokemon, then gradually roll out the other sets later.

Thursday

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