They're Still Out There! 22 22

[LDarkseid1]

That YouTube guy KirbyLeeDitko Comics and especially his father have a pretty awesome silver collection. I guess his father’s would be considered a pedigree.

[lou_fine]

22 hours ago, tth2 said:

Is there an Action 1, Detective 27 or Batman 1?  Because nothing else matters anymore.

Not to today's generation of big money crazed crypto minded FOMO buyers who have no interest in old smelly dingy books from 80+ years ago.  

What these new deep pocketed buyers are looking for nowadays as their holy grails are 10.0 graded copies of books like Transformers 1, Shogun Warriors 1, Micronaunts 1, etc.    

[Moondog]

If the books in this new collection only sell for an average of $1,000 each that's $5 million.  Unbelievable.  I can't wait to see exactly what's in there.  And all I heard was 9.6 and 9.8 on the first batch back.

[LDarkseid1]

16 minutes ago, Moondog said:

If the books in this new collection only sell for an average of $1,000 each that's $5 million.  Unbelievable.  I can't wait to see exactly what's in there.  And all I heard was 9.6 and 9.8 on the first batch back.

Yeah I mean if we’re talking high grade golden age, then will definitely average quite a bit more than $1K.

[LDarkseid1]

Question, does something like this devalue the golden age market as a whole? I mean suddenly sooo many high grade golden age books hitting the market. Chips away at the lack of supply a little you know.

[ChillMan]

CGC has stacks of crappy common-issue GA comics stored in their warehouse.  They clean & press them and proclaim it's a new pedigree.  They get everyone thinking they're worth $10K each.

[ChillMan]

Classic WW2 cover

Benny Hill pedigree, 8.5

$20,000

[lou_fine]

4 hours ago, LDarkseid1 said:

Just thought about the craziness that would be those grading fees! Several different scenarios, but 5000 high grade golden age books. I mean even if you did every single one at standard tier, saving 20% with the auction house. So at $48 per book after the 20% off, that’s still $240K in grading fees 🤯. Keep in mind that’s just grading, you start pressing and obviously considerably more. And of course much higher if express or walkthrough, then looking at like $500K-$750K. Nice to have a huge auction house to front those costs 😁

 

4 hours ago, Aman619 said:

Chalk it up to the cost of doing business. Danny D had it right when he said that grading would make you take on a lot of partners in your collection to sell for what they are worth!

Yes, although grading and all of the additional ancillary costs that goes along with it is indeed the cost of doing business, it's most definitely a huge upfront cost for anybody to absorb on their own.  Especially if you are talking about 5,000 HG GA books, which more than likely also means a good portion of them would be past the maximum threshold value level for even the Standard tier.  I guess that's the main reason why most of these OO collections don't end up getting graded and pedigreed until it is actually time for them to be brought to market where the lucky consigning auction house will be more than happy to front the slabbing fees for you just in order to acquire your collection.  

With the exception of the aforementioned and recently anointed Chinatown Pedigree, I am not aware of any other pedigree where the owner/dealer got them all slabbed and subsequently pedigreed and have yet to bring them to market, even after all these long long years.  Definitely a huge cost to absorb on your own without having to sell off at least a samll portion of the collection to offset the grading costs and whatever else comes along with it.  A true rarity in this pedigree marketplace, although some of the old timers here might know of other collections which have been slabbed and pedigreed, and yet not brought to market until many years later.    

[LDarkseid1]

4 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

 

Yes, although grading and all of the additional ancillary costs that goes along with it is indeed the cost of doing business, it's most definitely a huge upfront cost for anybody to absorb on their own.  Especially if you are talking about 5,000 HG GA books, which more than likely also means a good portion of them would be past the maximum threshold value level for even the Standard tier.  I guess that's the main reason why most of these OO collections don't end up getting graded and pedigreed until it is actually time for them to be brought to market where the lucky consigning auction house will be more than happy to front the slabbing fees for you just in order to acquire your collection.  

With the exception of the aforementioned and recently anointed Chinatown Pedigree, I am not aware of any other pedigree where the owner/dealer got them all slabbed and subsequently pedigreed and have yet to bring them to market, even after all these long long years.  Definitely a huge cost to absorb on your own without having to sell off at least a samll portion of the collection to offset the grading costs and whatever else comes along with it.  A true rarity in this pedigree marketplace, although some of the old timers here might know of other collections which have been slabbed and pedigreed, and yet not brought to market until many years later.    

No I totally get that. I know people still have raw copies of a lot of the big pedigree books for that reason. Some come with a certificate, atleast I’ve seen. If anything though, definitely makes sense to grade in batches, sell, make cheddar cheese, rinse and repeat.

[lou_fine]

21 minutes ago, LDarkseid1 said:

Question, does something like this devalue the golden age market as a whole? I mean suddenly sooo many high grade golden age books hitting the market. Chips away at the lack of supply a little you know.

And yet if you take a look at the ready availability of HG high dollar value books like TMNT 1, Hulk 181, GSXM 1, Spidey 129, etc, it's actually the large supply of them in grade by the hundreds or even thousands that allows it to continually drive their prices up in the marketplace.  

[LDarkseid1]

2 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

And yet if you take a look at the ready availability of HG high dollar value books like TMNT 1, Hulk 181, GSXM 1, Spidey 129, etc, it's actually the large supply of them in grade by the hundreds or even thousands that allows it to continually drive their prices up in the marketplace.  

Yeah it’s just those books have been readily available for decades. To add soo many high grade golden age books, books likely thought to be rare and especially in high grade. Just makes me think. Presumably a lot of books that aren’t super hot keys like Spider 129, TMNT 1, Hulk 181 and GSXM 1.

[LDarkseid1]

Thought this was interesting to read. CGC’s guidelines for a pedigree collection:

CGC Pedigree Status Criteria

The collection must be original owner.
This means that the books must have been bought off the newsstand as they came out. For example, a collector cannot buy a high-grade run of 1940s comics from various sources and expect it to be considered a pedigree. The original owner need not currently own the comics for the collection to be considered for pedigree status.

The collection must be of vintage material.
This means that a large collection consisting of comics from the 1970s to present cannot be considered a pedigree. In fact, until the sale of some key White Mountain books in a Sotheby’s auction in the early 1990s, Silver Age comics were not accepted as pedigree collections. Comic books from 1966 and after are relatively common in high grade compared to earlier issues. This occurred as a direct result of a tremendous explosion in the number of collectors in fandom in the mid-1960s. Collections that are primarily from 1966 and after must have average grades of at least 9.4 to be considered a pedigree.

The collection must consist of a considerable number of comics.
Most pedigree collections consist of at least 1,000 books and some number over 10,000 comics. The collections that consist of fewer books, such as the Allentown and Denver collections, must include extremely rare, important, and/or key material.

The collection must be high-grade.
Comics from the Silver Age in general would have to be 9.2 and higher, and a collection of exclusive Silver Age material must have an average grade of 9.4. Golden Age comics would have to be high-grade as well. For example, the Lost Valley collection consisted of many golden age books from before 1941 that were technically mid-grade, but were almost across the board the highest graded copy for that book. Page quality must be nice as well.

Many of the pedigree collections were recognized and accepted by the hobby before CGC came into existence in late 1999.

[lou_fine]

Well, if you look back at some of the new so-called "pedigrees" they announced at the same time in order to help hype and launch their new pedigree label back in the summer of 2019, it would appear that you are missing one of CGC's key criteria for a collection to be qualified as an official pedigree.     

[lou_fine]

3 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

4 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

So here's my hypothetical:  A guy finds 2,500 high grade GA comics in a garbage can and takes them to a dealer.  The dealer puts them into his personal collection but keeps them segregated.  50 years later the dealer wants to bring them to market as a pedigree.  Works or not?

not for me either,:Pedigree" has become diluted similar to "unrestored" over the years.

Not sure what you mean by "diluted" here, since the hypothetical states that the dealer kept the books segregated from all of his other books?  

I can certainly understand the agrument about finding them in a garbage can, and hence not being able to trace them back to the OO per se.  

[sfcityduck]

5 hours ago, pemart1966 said:

Not a  pedigree in my opinion.  You have no way of knowing the original source of those books - were they bought second hand or off of the newsstands? 

The others you mentioned regardless of whether they went straight to auction or were purchased by a dealer CAN be traced back as OO newsstand purchased and therefore rightfully deserve the moniker "pedigree".  

 

Bangzoom knows the name of the OO.

[sfcityduck]

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

 

With the exception of the aforementioned and recently anointed Chinatown Pedigree, I am not aware of any other pedigree where the owner/dealer got them all slabbed and subsequently pedigreed and have yet to bring them to market, even after all these long long years.  

Dave Anderson has one he picked up in California.

[lou_fine]

2 hours ago, Moondog said:

I can't wait to see exactly what's in there.  And all I heard was 9.6 and 9.8 on the first batch back.

Well, let's hope this first batch here isn't made up entirely of just books from the Famous Funnies and Four Color run then.  

[sfcityduck]

1 hour ago, LDarkseid1 said:

Thought this was interesting to read. CGC’s guidelines for a pedigree collection:

 

CGC Pedigree Status Criteria

The collection must be original owner.
This means that the books must have been bought off the newsstand as they came out. For example, a collector cannot buy a high-grade run of 1940s comics from various sources and expect it to be considered a pedigree. The original owner need not currently own the comics for the collection to be considered for pedigree status.

The collection must be of vintage material.
This means that a large collection consisting of comics from the 1970s to present cannot be considered a pedigree. In fact, until the sale of some key White Mountain books in a Sotheby’s auction in the early 1990s, Silver Age comics were not accepted as pedigree collections. Comic books from 1966 and after are relatively common in high grade compared to earlier issues. This occurred as a direct result of a tremendous explosion in the number of collectors in fandom in the mid-1960s. Collections that are primarily from 1966 and after must have average grades of at least 9.4 to be considered a pedigree.

The collection must consist of a considerable number of comics.
Most pedigree collections consist of at least 1,000 books and some number over 10,000 comics. The collections that consist of fewer books, such as the Allentown and Denver collections, must include extremely rare, important, and/or key material.

The collection must be high-grade.
Comics from the Silver Age in general would have to be 9.2 and higher, and a collection of exclusive Silver Age material must have an average grade of 9.4. Golden Age comics would have to be high-grade as well. For example, the Lost Valley collection consisted of many golden age books from before 1941 that were technically mid-grade, but were almost across the board the highest graded copy for that book. Page quality must be nice as well.

Many of the pedigree collections were recognized and accepted by the hobby before CGC came into existence in late 1999.

The collection must originate from an OO, but it does not matter if we don't know who that OO was as a long as a dealer vouches for it.  Go figure.  Cosmic Aeroplane, Kansas City, Allentown are sort of a continuum of these type of books.

 

[sfcityduck]

1 minute ago, lou_fine said:

Well, let's hope this first batch here isn't made up entirely of just books from the Famous Funnies and Four Color run then.  

I'd most want to see a bunch of late 40s and early 50s high grade books.

[lou_fine]

2 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

 

With the exception of the aforementioned and recently anointed Chinatown Pedigree, I am not aware of any other pedigree where the owner/dealer got them all slabbed and subsequently pedigreed and have yet to bring them to market, even after all these long long years.  

Dave Anderson has one he picked up in California.

What was the name of this particular pedigree and I assume you are not referring to the Indian Reservation by Gary Carter that is apparently nothing except an urban legend in the comic book collecting world.