Some Unconfirmed Speculation About Two Brothers 16 16

[sfcityduck]

Matt Nelson commented the other night on the Tales From the Flipside show on Youtube: “As much as the family wants their privacy, inevitably, people are curious in this hobby and will piece things together, which is fine.” 

I agree with him. 

When a new pedigree collection emerges, the collecting community is very very interested in the back story.  And sometimes folks, for example Jon Berk, take the trouble to "piece things together" and identify the original owner of the comics.  So it is inevitable that is going to happen with the Promise Collection.  

The problem is, any such effort is just speculation unless the family steps forward or Heritage tells what they know.  And that's not going to happen.  Brian Wiedman said the other night on Tales From the Flipside: "What you saw on Bleeding Cool is what we are allowed to say."  He then went on to say: "Unfortunately, I cannot give away location and the name, the clients want to be extremely confidential.”  Thus, there is no practical way to confirm any speculation we might make.  

If we were going to speculate, we'd start with the ad Heritage took out in Bleeding Cool that was drafted by the Board's own Mark Seifert (no, he can't talk either, that would violate his journalistic ethics and likely Bleeding Cool's deal with Heritage):

Quote

In the early 1950s, a young man called Robert was drafted by the Army to fight in Korea. His younger brother, known as Junie, enlisted in the hopes of keeping watch over Robert. Junie had but one request of his big brother – that Robert take care of his collection of funny books should anything happen to him in battle.

Robert knew how dear those books were to his brother. So he promised him: Yes, of course. He would take care of those funny books. If something happened. God forbid.

Then Junie was killed in action. He was 21 years old.

Robert came home from the war and fulfilled his promise to his brother.  The comic books were carefully boxed up and put in an attic, where they stayed for over half a century.

That's the info Heritage has given us to work with.  

That info and this challenge:  

Quote

When their names become known, the collecting community remembers the original fans who have passed their collections down through the decades to be appreciated in the modern day. Readers and collectors such as Edgar Church, who amassed a collection of nearly 15,000 comics 1937-1957, Davis Crippen, who bought and saved some 13,000 comics 1940-1955, and Lamont Larson, who collected over 1,000 comic books 1936-1940, are all legendary names within the collecting hobby.  The modern collecting community fondly remembers these names and others and discusses them often.  Robert and Junie will be added to this list of legends.

Yes, they will.  But, first we need to nail down who they are.  

So what follows will be my entirely unconfirmed, but not unevidenced, speculation as to the identities of Robert and Junie.  And, as I think you'll see, if I'm right in this speculation, their story is more interesting and heroic than Heritage is allowed to say.  

[More to come.]

Edited May 17, 2021 by sfcityduck

[Mr. Lady Luck]

In the Bleeding Cool article, they say that the younger brother, Junie, was the comic collector. But in the YouTube video, they say it was definitely the older brother who was the comic collector.

[sfcityduck]

So all we've got work with is two names, Robert and Junie, right?

Wrong.

We also have this:

A cursive "Armand" written on this and other books.

So now we know three names to work with, Robert, Armand, and Junie, right?

Wrong.  

"Junie" is a nickname.  Heritage made this clear when they stated in the ad "His younger brother, known as Junie ...."

So now we're back to two names, right?  Yep.  And either or both of Robert or Armand could be first, middle or last names.

And guess what?  Over thirty to fourty thousand U.S. soldiers died during the Korean War (the number is still debated).  So you can't just scan a list.

The impression you should be getting from these comments is that we don't have a lot of info, and we have a lot of suspects.  So, again, I emphasize that I'm speculating.

But, there are ways to filter down our suspects to a manageable amount.

[More to come.]

[sfcityduck]

5 hours ago, Mr. Lady Luck said:

In the Bleeding Cool article, they say that the younger brother, Junie, was the comic collector. But in the YouTube video, they say it was definitely the older brother who was the comic collector.

Brian's eyes were scanning a -script or notes as he initially told the story.  He admitted he had not been there on the day of discovery and he had the story second hand.  He stated Bleeding Cool was the official version.  Matt corrected him on the "collector was the older brother" statement, and Brian missed the hint.  So I'm going with Bleeding Cool.  But, the disconnect in Heritage and Brian's telling of the story is another reason why I call this speculation. We'll talk more about that later.

Edited May 18, 2021 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

So what else do we have to work with?  Actually, quite a lot.  

First, "Junie" is a nickname.  A common nickname.  For "Jr."

Second, if I'm correct that "Junie" means "Jr." and Junie's real name was Armand, then we know that he is named either FIRST MIDDLE Armand, Jr. or Armand MIDDLE LAST, Jr. or FIRST Armand LAST, Jr.

Moreover, if Armand is a Jr., then you know that his father must also have had Armand has a first, middle, or last name. 

I ran searches for soldiers who fought in Korea named Robert Armand who had brothers who died or were named _____ Armand, Jr.  Struck out.

So then I had to move on to first and middle names.  

Fortunately, my parents have reached the point in their lives where they've gotten into genealogy.  And they have an Ancestry account.  And Ancestry lets you run searches for families where a parent has a first/middle name of Armand, a son has a first/middle name of Armand, and a brother has a first/middle name of Robert.  And guess what? 

When I ran that search 334 families fit the bill.

But, in none of those families, as far as I could tell, were there two brothers (Robert and Armand) who fought in Korea and the brother named Armand had died.  

But, I wasn't done yet.  Fortunately, I knew something about the 1940 U.S. Census, which is a key record for finding the family composition of someone who fought ten years later in Korea.

[More to Come.]

Edited May 18, 2021 by sfcityduck

[piper]

[sfcityduck]

What I knew is that the census was taken by hand, the census takers didn't have a lot of room to write, and they used codes and abbreviations.  

So I ran a different search based on that knowledge.  And when I ran that search, I found a family with a younger brother named Armand, who was a "Jr.," who had an older brother with the name "Robert."

I did some more research and found a number of soldiers named "Armand," were a "Jr.," who had died in the Korean War.  But, none of those had a brother named Robert who was in the Army during the Korean War.  The Armand I found had died in Korea and his brother was in the Army during the Korean War.

The pair of brothers I found had a story that, to me, was more interesting and reflective of America than the story being told by Heritage.  

BUT, here's the thing:  The brothers I found do not exactly fit the story as floated by Brian the other night on Tales From the Flip Side or as told by Heritage in the Bleeding Cool article.  Here's a key difference:  Brian said that the older brother died last year.  The older brother I found died in 2001.

Here's why I think I'm right, and Brian got the older brother's date of death wrong.  First, Brian has the story second hand.  Second, he made some other statements which flatly contradicted the ad Heritage took out in Bleeding Cool, such as that the OO who died in Korea being the older brother, not the younger brother.  As Brian told the story, he was sort of reasoning it out by trying to compute the age of the surviving brother by using Brian's grandfather's age as a reference point.  The overall impression I got was that Brian said what he thought were the true facts, but he appeared to be unsure and was sort of reasoning it out on the fly.  You can watch the video and make up your own mind.  Or maybe Heritage will clarify the point (I'm not holding my breath as I don't think they are permitted to do so).

We do know this:  The Heritage ad on Bleeding Cool said "Robert came home from the war and fulfilled his promise to his brother.  The comic books were carefully boxed up and put in an attic, where they stayed for over half a century."  2001 was 51 years after the "Armand Jr." I identified died.  So that fits.  And, most telling, Brian made the following statement with absolute conviction and surety during the interview when he was asked by Deno whether the books had been boxed and boarded before Ed and Lon first saw them:  "Apparently, twenty years earlier they had bagged and boarded every single book.  And stored them in long boxes."

Twenty years ago was 2001, the year I think the former soldier who is older brother Robert died. 

So Riddle me this?  What makes more sense:

(a) The books get boxed and boarded because Robert's heirs did it when they were cleaning out his abode.  After all, if you found 5,000 comics in your Dad's house after he died, wouldn't you go to a comic store and buy the materials to keep them safe until you had the emotional where with all to deal with them?  You probably would if this was back when the OPG said most of those comics were worth only in the tens or hundreds of dollars in the VG shape the kids thought they were in (according to Brian).  Even the CA 1 was a mid-four figure book, and the kids could have thought it was in poor condition (which it was compared to what they thought was VG) or didn't realize its significance. 

Or

(b) A living Robert (who must have been in his 70s by then) decides the way he's stored the comics has not been good enough for the past 50 years and he decides to rush out and buy 5,000 bags and boards?

For me, its an easy choice to think I've got this right.

But, I'm going to pause now, before revealing the names of the brothers and their heroic story.  Why?  Because if someone knows I've got this wrong so far, I'd like them to let me know.  No need to name who I think the brothers are if someone here can make a definitive statement that I'm wrong.

If I'm not wrong, we'll start looking at some really interesting stuff about the two brothers.

[More to Come?]

Edited May 17, 2021 by sfcityduck

[Bird]

You sir, are to be commended. You not only researched the heck out of this but you are telling a compelling tale as well.

I pity your enemies.

[comicjack]

25 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

What I knew is that the census was taken by hand, the census takers didn't have a lot of room to write, and they used codes and abbreviations.  

So I ran a different search based on that knowledge.  And when I ran that search, I found a family with a younger brother named Armand, who was a "Jr.," who had an older brother with the name "Robert."

I did some more research and found a number of soldiers named "Armand," were a "Jr.," who had died in the Korean War.  But, none of those had a brother named Robert who was in the Army during the Korean War.  The Armand I found had died in Korea and his brother was in the Army during the Korean War.

The pair of brothers I found had a story that, to me, was more interesting and reflective of America than the story being told by Heritage.  

BUT, here's the thing:  The brothers I found do not exactly fit the story as floated by Brian the other night on Tales From the Flip Side or as told by Heritage in the Bleeding Cool article.  Here's a key difference:  Brian said that the older brother died last year.  The older brother I found died in 2001.

Here's why I think I'm right, and Brian got the older brother's date of death wrong.  First, Brian has the story second hand.  Second, he made some other statements which flatly contradicted the ad Heritage took out in Bleeding Cool, such as that the OO who died in Korea being the older brother, not the younger brother.  As Brian told the story, he was sort of reasoning it out by trying to compute the age of the surviving brother by using Brian's grandfather's age as a reference point.  The overall impression I got was that Brian said what he thought were the true facts, but he appeared to be unsure and was sort of reasoning it out on the fly.  You can watch the video and make up your own mind.  Or maybe Heritage will clarify the point (I'm not holding my breath as I don't think they are permitted to do so).

We do know this:  The Heritage ad on Bleeding Cool said "Robert came home from the war and fulfilled his promise to his brother.  The comic books were carefully boxed up and put in an attic, where they stayed for over half a century."  2001 was 51 years after the "Armand Jr." I identified died.  So that fits.  And, most telling, Brian made the following statement with absolute conviction and surety during the interview when he was asked by Deno whether the books had been boxed and boarded before Ed and Lon first saw them:  "Apparently, twenty years earlier they had bagged and boarded every single book.  And stored them in long boxes."

Twenty years ago was 2001, the year I think the former soldier who is older brother Robert died. 

So Riddle me this?  What makes more sense:

(a) The books get boxed and boarded because Robert's heirs did it when they were cleaning out his abode.  After all, if you found 5,000 comics in your Dad's house after he died, wouldn't you go to a comic store and buy the materials to keep them safe until you had the emotional where with all to deal with them?  You probably would if this was back when the OPG said most of those comics were worth only in the tens or hundreds of dollars in the VG shape the kids thought they were in (according to Brian).  Even the CA 1 was a mid-four figure book, and the kids could have thought it was in poor condition (which it was compared to what they thought was VG) or didn't realize its significance. 

Or

(b) A living Robert (who must have been in his 70s by then) decides the way he's stored the comics has not been good enough for the past 50 years and he decides to rush out and buy 5,000 bags and boards?

For me, its an easy choice to think I've got this right.

But, I'm going to pause now, before revealing the names of the brothers and their heroic story.  Why?  Because if someone knows I've got this wrong so far, I'd like them to let me know.  No need to name who I think the brothers are if someone here can make a definitive statement that I'm wrong.

If I'm not wrong, we'll start looking at some really interesting stuff about the two brothers.

[More to Come?]

Great detective work i am always amazed with the board members 

[sagii]

 

[Point Five]

If the family wants to remain confidential, surely we should respect that wish?

 

[sfcityduck]

Just now, Point Five said:

If the family wants to remain confidential, surely we should respect that wish?

 

My knee-jerk reaction is that if the family truly wanted to remain confidential they would not have decided to market these books by telling us the story of Robert and Junie, which is all the information I think we need to make an I.D.   I think Matt put it well:  “As much as the family wants their privacy, inevitably, people are curious in this hobby and will piece things together, which is fine.”  Why is that "fine"?  Because as Heritage put it:

Quote

When their names become known, the collecting community remembers the original fans who have passed their collections down through the decades to be appreciated in the modern day. Readers and collectors such as Edgar Church, who amassed a collection of nearly 15,000 comics 1937-1957, Davis Crippen, who bought and saved some 13,000 comics 1940-1955, and Lamont Larson, who collected over 1,000 comic books 1936-1940, are all legendary names within the collecting hobby.  The modern collecting community fondly remembers these names and others and discusses them often.  Robert and Junie will be added to this list of legends.

 

I am not planning to reveal the names of the surviving brother's children, nieces, nephews, etc.  I get that lottery winners don't want their names and addresses revealed if they can avoid it.  I am just fleshing out a story that the family has already made public.  

[shadroch]

I admire your detective skills but why are you outing someone that asks that their privacy be respected? 

[MasterChief]

3 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

A cursive "Armand" written on this and other books.

So now we know three names to work with, Robert, Armand, and Junie, right?

Wrong.  

"Junie" is a nickname.  Heritage made this clear when they stated in the ad "His younger brother, known as Junie ...."

So now we're back to two names, right?  Yep.  And either or both of Robert or Armand could be first, middle or last names.

And guess what?  Over thirty to fourty thousand U.S. soldiers died during the Korean War (the number is still debated).  So you can't just scan a list.

The impression you should be getting from these comments is that we don't have a lot of info, and we have a lot of suspects.  So, again, I emphasize that I'm speculating.

But, there are ways to filter down our suspects to a manageable amount.

 

Fascinating stuff! 

By my count, 7 books currently display a word penciled in cursive. A few of these books are either accompanied by a short slash mark under the word and/or a distributor's mark. All of these books were published in 1949 with on-sale dates, per Grand Comics Database (GCD), between the months of May and August. The issues are listed below by the on-sale date (month/year), versus the CGC label month/year notation, in an effort to determine the proximity of the cursive word inscription.

True Crime Comics #6 5/49
Detective Comics #150 6/49
Captain America Comics #74 7/49*
Detective Comics #151 7/49
Marvel Tales #94 7/49*
Detective Comics #152 8/49
The Saint #7 8/49

Robert, according to the story, was drafted into service. The World War II draft operated from 1940 until 1946. In the wake of the escalating Cold War, President Truman in 1948 asks that the draft be reinstated as the level of military forces falls below necessary numbers. In 1949 the scrawled word appears on the cover of Promise Collection books. This may indicate that Junie followed his brother into service (enlisted). The conflict in Korean begins in June of 1950. One ships off to war, the other remains in the rear with the gear CONUS or OCONUS. Collection timeline ends in 1951. 

*GCD does not list an on-sale date. Distributor mark on cover indicates "7" for the month of arrival.

Edited May 18, 2021 by MasterChief

[sfcityduck]

18 minutes ago, shadroch said:

I admire your detective skills but why are you outing someone that asks that their privacy be respected? 

I am not "outing" anyone who asks that their privacy be respected.  I am planning to name two decedents.  Why?  See my answer immediately above your question.

But let me ask you this, let's assume a hypothetical that I believe is not the case case here: 

What if neither Robert or Junie had served in the Army?  What if the family's story was false about that?  Should we let them tell such a story and not seek to verify it?  Of course not!  That would be stolen valor.  Stories increase the prices on comics.  Verifying them, fleshing them out, is important.  Once someone tells a story to sell a comic, it is pretty well established that we're entitled as buyers to confirm the story. 

Here, if my I.D. is right, my conclusion is that Robert and Junie WERE in the Army, and Junie did die in battle.

Edited May 18, 2021 by sfcityduck

[Funnybooks]

14 minutes ago, Point Five said:

If the family wants to remain confidential, surely we should respect that wish?

 

I agree with you in a vacuum...however,

6 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

My knee-jerk reaction is that if the family truly wanted to remain confidential they would not have decided to market these books by telling us the story of Robert and Junie, which is all the information I think we need to make an I.D.   I think Matt put it well:  “As much as the family wants their privacy, inevitably, people are curious in this hobby and will piece things together, which is fine.”  Why is that "fine"?  Because as Heritage put it:

 

I am not planning to reveal the names of the surviving brother's children, nieces, nephews, etc.  I get that lottery winners don't want their names and addresses revealed if they can avoid it.  I am just fleshing out a story that the family has already made public.  

I also agree that if anonymity was of the utmost importance, the books would be in auction without any specific backstory that would link the family in any way. They must have clearly understood that the sales of the books would benefit from the press release and in turn maximize the potential return from the sales of these books.

[sfcityduck]

5 minutes ago, MasterChief said:

 

Collection timeline ends in 1951. 

*GCD does not list an on-sale date. Distributor mark on cover indicates "7" for the month of arrival.

Where do you get that?  I've heard hard stop in 1950.

[MasterChief]

1 minute ago, sfcityduck said:

Where do you get that?  I've heard hard stop in 1950.

There are 3 promise books in the current auction with 1951 in the description. I have not checked but I suspect these books have late 1950 on-sale dates. Here's a link.

 

 

[sfcityduck]

4 minutes ago, MasterChief said:

There are 3 promise books in the current auction with 1951 in the description. I have not checked but I suspect these books have late 1950 on-sale dates. Here's a link.

 

 

On sale dates are all 1950, which is significant, I think.

[speedcake]

Imagine you own a comic shop in 2001 and someone wanders in asking about bags and boards for “a bunch of comics in the attic with ten cents on the cover.”

And when you ask how many of these golden age bags and boards the customer needs they reply “oh, around FIVE THOUSAND,” how do you keep your heart in your chest?