Some Unconfirmed Speculation About Two Brothers 16 16

[sfcityduck]

I should mention one other fact.  The WWII draft was result of the passage of the Selective Training and Service Act on September 16, 1940. The World War II draft operated from 1940 until 1946 when further inductions were suspended, and its legislative authorization expired without further extension by Congress in 1947.

However, with the Cold War heating up, Congress then enacted the Selective Service Act of 1948. The new law required all men of age 18 to 26 to register.

My references above were to Jr.'s 1946 draft card.

[Gotham Kid]

1 hour ago, sfcityduck said:

When I first read the story on Bleeding Cool, I thought:  "This "Promise" story is frigging ridiculous!"  It is either "family mythology" or really naïve and cynical puffery.  I thought, "This is just a spin on the San Francisco story where it wasn't the family buying the comics and storing them while the soldier is at war, it is the OO buying the comics with the storing part changed to after he dies."  I was shocked they were retreading a story, the SF story, that had never even been verified.  The story seemed entirely implausible. 

After all, if you're a 19 to 21 year old going off to war, are you really going to tell your brother:  "If something happens to me take care of my funny books"!?!  Not "take care of my dog" or "take care of our sisters" or "take care of our parents" or "take care of my girl" even.  Instead, the story told by the family through Heritage was "take care of my funny books"! 

"Funny books" were only worth pennies on the dollar back then.  And I don't think soldiers going to war, especially if, as the family through Heritage told the story, they were volunteering to go to war to protect a family member, would have their "funny books' uppermost in their thoughts.   My initial impression was: "What total B.S.  A dumb story for a dumb pedigree name."

You could not make up a story more targeted to the present comic market.  The story seemed too good to be true.

Interesting post. Be sure to expect your HA auction catalog soon.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Gotham Kid

[shadroch]

Legally, who would be entitled to the collection?

If the younger brother died without a will or being married, I'd think all his possessions passed on to his parents, not his siblings. I think it is safe to assume both his parents are dead so then they would be part of the parents estate. 

[sfcityduck]

7 minutes ago, shadroch said:

Legally, who would be entitled to the collection?

If the younger brother died without a will or being married, I'd think all his possessions passed on to his parents, not his siblings. I think it is safe to assume both his parents are dead so then they would be part of the parents estate. 

You are correct that in many states Parents are the first heirs of their children, not siblings.  But, if, as Heritage told the story, "Junie" asked "Robert" to take care of his comics, and "Junie's" parents knew of that request, they would presumably have given the comics to Robert because that was "Junie's" wish.  That Robert had possession of the comics for 50 years is strong evidence that his parents gave him the comics.  My guess is also he owned those comics for 50 years without any complaint from the two other younger siblings or the parents.  These facts, if present, evidence Robert's sole ownership to the comics.  So I don't think we're going to see any dispute brought by Robert's siblings or their heirs.  This is all pure speculation and not a legal opinion.

Edited May 18, 2021 by sfcityduck

[MasterChief]

2 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

When I first read the story on Bleeding Cool, I thought:  "This "Promise' story is frigging ridiculous!"  It is either "family mythology" or really naïve and cynical puffery.  I thought, "This is just a spin on the San Francisco story where it wasn't the family buying the comics and storing them while the soldier is at war, it is the OO buying the comics with the storing part changed to after he dies."  I was shocked they were retreading a story, the SF story, that had never even been verified.  The story seemed entirely implausible.

And I don't think I was alone in thinking that.  Does anyone really disagree?

Not at all. I share your skepticism regarding the story.

Initially, with the release of the Bleeding Cool piece, I was somewhat cynical. But became more so with the glaring contradictions made by Brian Wiedman, who was publicly representing Heritage.

If Heritage was so concerned about confidentiality, then why on earth would they allow someone to speak on behalf of the company and not prepare them for the interview? It was obvious that Heritage Brian did not go over the manuscript and memorize his lines prior to going live. Moreover, there has not been a correction to the Bleeding Cool article nor has Heritage walked back the (apparent) misstatements made by Wiedman. So, suspicion builds.

The military service/war tie-in angle is an altogether different element for me. Being a retired veteran, I'm keenly aware of how the military, and those who have served honorably, is sometimes exploited by those seeking personal, business, or political favor. Often used to stir up patriotism and pride for all of those that served, it can be a valuable marketing tool for entities seeking to use (or create) a story for financial gain.

For those reasons, I distrust the assertion of the story. To me it's just another "Action Comics #1 stored in a cedar chest" tale. This time using the Forgotten War and a soldier's sacrifice as the hook. In my opinion, verification and clarity needs to be determined.

That's my .

[SteveDuin]

5 minutes ago, MasterChief said:

Not at all. I share your skepticism regarding the story.

Initially, with the release of the Bleeding Cool piece, I was somewhat cynical. But became more so with the glaring contradictions made by Brian Wiedman, who was publicly representing Heritage.

If Heritage was so concerned about confidentiality, then why on earth would they allow someone to speak on behalf of the company and not prepare them for the interview? It was obvious that Heritage Brian did not go over the manuscript and memorize his lines prior to going live. Moreover, there has not been a correction to the Bleeding Cool article nor has Heritage walked back the (apparent) misstatements made by Wiedman. So, suspicion builds.

The military service/war tie-in angle is an altogether different element for me. Being a retired veteran, I'm keenly aware of how the military, and those who have served honorably, is sometimes exploited by those seeking personal, business, or political favor. Often used to stir up patriotism and pride for all of those that served, it can be a valuable marketing tool for entities seeking to use (or create) a story for financial gain.

For those reasons, I distrust the assertion of the story. To me it's just another "Action Comics #1 stored in a cedar chest" tale. This time using the Forgotten War and a soldier's sacrifice as the hook. In my opinion, verification and clarity needs to be determined.

That's my .

A thoughtful and pointed perspective. I don't understand the argument that we should let sleeping dogs, and bizarre contractions, lie.

[Courageous Cat]

Momma always said, buy the book, not the story

[comicginger1789]

5 minutes ago, Courageous Cat said:

Momma always said, buy the book, not the story

But this book doesn't even have a cover...yet.....

[comicginger1789]

24 minutes ago, MasterChief said:

Not at all. I share your skepticism regarding the story.

Initially, with the release of the Bleeding Cool piece, I was somewhat cynical. But became more so with the glaring contradictions made by Brian Wiedman, who was publicly representing Heritage.

If Heritage was so concerned about confidentiality, then why on earth would they allow someone to speak on behalf of the company and not prepare them for the interview? It was obvious that Heritage Brian did not go over the manuscript and memorize his lines prior to going live. Moreover, there has not been a correction to the Bleeding Cool article nor has Heritage walked back the (apparent) misstatements made by Wiedman. So, suspicion builds.

The military service/war tie-in angle is an altogether different element for me. Being a retired veteran, I'm keenly aware of how the military, and those who have served honorably, is sometimes exploited by those seeking personal, business, or political favor. Often used to stir up patriotism and pride for all of those that served, it can be a valuable marketing tool for entities seeking to use (or create) a story for financial gain.

For those reasons, I distrust the assertion of the story. To me it's just another "Action Comics #1 stored in a cedar chest" tale. This time using the Forgotten War and a soldier's sacrifice as the hook. In my opinion, verification and clarity needs to be determined.

That's my .

Interesting...so you think the whole story is fabricated or at least blown up to try to inflate interest?

So then...what WOULD the story be behind the comics? Surely they are actually comics that were found. Maybe the original story is nothing great (hey my great grandfather had comics he stored away from his shop and we've just had them all these years) and it was spun into something extremely elaborate, designed to pull at the heartstrings and potentially wallets of collectors. I mean...I know I sound like a naive insufficiently_thoughtful_person but to do that just seems bad. But we live in a world where I guess that could be just as likely.

Surely, eventually, if the family and people become known, those close to them can validate the truth behind the tale. Right now, detective work and what not might figure out who it is but only time will solidify the story. It is a big enough collection in a big enough hobby that someone (a friend or someone) will know and validate the truth behind it. 

[sfcityduck]

2 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

I should mention one other fact.  The WWII draft was result of the passage of the Selective Training and Service Act on September 16, 1940. The World War II draft operated from 1940 until 1946 when further inductions were suspended, and its legislative authorization expired without further extension by Congress in 1947.

However, with the Cold War heating up, Congress then enacted the Selective Service Act of 1948. The new law required all men of age 18 to 26 to register.

My references above were to Robert's 1946 draft card.

So why does the fact there were two drafts, with a gap between them, and with the second draft starting in 1948 matter?  Two potential reasons:

First, records of draft cards for the draft enacted for 1948 are had to come by.  There's no doubt that Robert was required to register for the 1948 draft because he would have been twenty at that point, but I have not obtained that draft card.  And it is also possible that his 1946 draft card had the effect of registering him for the 1948 draft.  In either event, the 1948 draft requirement was enacted and became effective in June 1948, and Robert was eligible as soon as the draft became effective.

Second, the family's story as relayed by Heritage is:  

Quote

In the early 1950s, a young man called Robert was drafted by the Army to fight in Korea. His younger brother, known as Junie, enlisted in the hopes of keeping watch over Robert. 

Frankly, I've always thought this story was implausible also.  We are to believe that a younger brother enlisted to keep watch over his older brother who was drafted?  Isn't that backwards?  It's a pretty extraordinary claim.  We are to believe that the "Junie" is so concerned about taking care of his older brother that he voluntarily enlists to join the Army because his older brother was drafted, but "Junie" is so concerned about his "funny books" that he asks the older brother he is to protect to watch over them if something should happen to himself.  Really weird story.  Outside the fanatic comic collecting community it would be deemed entirely implausible.

It's also, I think, a naïve story.  What kid would actually think he'd be assigned to the same Army unit as his drafted brother?

And if I'm right about the I.D. of the two brothers, based on the info I have about them, that facet of the story is not entirely accurate.  It is not far from the facts, and it could very well have been twisted a bit as the family stories were passed down and memories faded.  So let's not jump to nefarious conclusions.

And, more importantly, what I think is the true story is actually more compelling.

The younger brother of Robert I located, "Jr.", did something very similar to Robert's voluntary enlistment into the Merchant Marine at age 16. 

Jr., at age 17, in 1948, before the draft was reinstated, voluntarily enlisted in the Army.   Jr. wasn't even of draft age yet.  He enlisted the day after he turned 17, the first day he could have enlisted in the Army.  He'd grown up loving superhero, adventure, and war comics, and maybe they brought out the hero in him.

The military records I have found show Robert, the older brother in my pair, as not having an enlistment date until late 1950. So the "younger brother enlisted to look after older brother" story just doesn't work with my pair.

But, these facts suggests that the "promise" that may actually have been made was that Robert (and maybe the parents) would make sure they kept buying Jr.'s favorite comics while he was in the service.  This could explain the comments we heard the other night about how the later comics look unread.  They may well have been unread.  If true, ironically enough, these facts are exactly the same promise that is at the core of the San Francisco story: a promise to buy an absent soldier the comics he loves while he's gone.

That the comics stop being purchased in late 1950 corresponds to Robert's own enlistment in the Army.  So this is the promise that I think it is really at the heart of this collection if my I.D. is right.

But, we haven't discussed yet what happened to Jr. and Robert.

That's going to break your heart.

At this point, some may think I've diverged too far from Heritage's story for this to be right pair of brothers.  Maybe so.  But, if not, again, no reason to suspect anything nefarious.  Because I think the story I'm about to tell is as compelling as they come.  And it may all end up tying back together enough that the discrepancies can be written off to fading memories.

Edited May 18, 2021 by sfcityduck

[drbanner]

[szav]

10 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

This could explain the comments we heard the other night about how the later comics look unread. 

Definitely one of more interesting questions about this pedigree, if the OO was a comic loving kid how could they look unread and have ended up so pristine. 
 

I join others in thanking you for the time you’ve taken to try and piece this all together.

Edited May 18, 2021 by szav

[reality_consensus]

Several days ago, I ascertained the identities of the brothers in about two hours without too much trouble. I respect the wishes of the family as to disclosure. 

I recognized the coding on the front covers immediately, similar to those seen on several GA books obtained from a dealer who found around 150 books in a storage unit.

The storage unit is located approximately 30 miles from the address of the recently passed brother!

[sfcityduck]

3 minutes ago, reality_consensus said:

Several days ago, I ascertained the identities of the brothers in about two hours without too much trouble. I respect the wishes of the family as to disclosure. 

I recognized the coding on the front covers immediately, similar to those seen on several GA books obtained from a dealer who found around 150 books in a storage unit.

The storage unit is located approximately 30 miles from the address of the recently passed brother!

PM sent.  Feel free to straighten me out, and I'll delete the thread.  

In the meantime, I'll continue the story of the two brothers I found, because even if I've got the wrong pair, it is a compelling story.

[lou_fine]

12 minutes ago, reality_consensus said:

The storage unit is located approximately 30 miles from the address of the recently passed brother!

So, the storage unit has an attic installed in there where the books were locked away for the past 70+ years?  

[thehumantorch]

58 minutes ago, SteveDuin said:

A thoughtful and pointed perspective. I don't understand the argument that we should let sleeping dogs, and bizarre contractions, lie.

This collection is being sold with an accompanying story that likely will increase it's value.  Researching and verifying the story that's used to sell the collection is logical and due diligence.  

[sfcityduck]

So here's how the story of the two brothers I found ends.  I'm going to abbreviate this in light of the post above as I await a follow up PM.

In 1954, Sr. fills out a headstone application.  But, here's the thing:  

The headstone application reflects that Jr. was KIA in the Summer of 1950.  It specifies the battle.  I won't go into that now.

What's that mean?  It means that it could very well be that between 1950 and 1953/1954 there was doubt as to Jr.'s survival.  Whether he was MIA or POW.  

Robert enlists in the Army in late Fall 1950.  Why?  Pure speculation, but maybe he wanted to go to Korea and "save" his younger brother.  Maybe the family has garbled the story as the years have gone by.  

Think how heart breaking it must have been if I'm right.  Robert, after buying comics for his brother for two years, learns he is MIA or POW.  He elects to enlist as a result.  That's why the collection ends with the late 1950 release dates.

But, Robert serves his two years, being discharged in late 1952.  The Korean War ends.  And bodies are recovered and MIA and POW mysteries start getting resolved. 

Turns out Jr. was KIA two months before Robert enlisted.  It is only in 1954, four years after Jr. has died, that the family gets a headstone.  

Frankly, I think it is a great story.  A story of the heroic impulses of two working/middle class kids.  Far better a story than what Heritage has told.  

I can't help but hope this turns out to be the right pair of brothers. 

And now we wait and see.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.  It is a possibility I have acknowledged from the beginning.  

And if I'm wrong, just delete all references to comic books, and you still have a very inspiring story.

I'm in no hurry to drop the names.  But I hope Heritage has the courage to address this head on, and not string it along until they can do their own revised write up.  That would be disappointing, if not distasteful.  I'd have hoped they would have shot down my speculation, if wrong, by now.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by sfcityduck

[Dr. Love]

Well done.  Well done.  As you said, inspiring as laid out.  

And maybe there's a twist to the end that goes above and beyond even that.  A tale of Robert's heirs, honoring the family legacy for 20 years beyond his passing.  2020 was a horrific year, not just in terms of life lost, but of economic devastation to a sizable part of the small business owners who some say form the business backbone of this country.  Maybe Robert's heirs were caught up in that turmoil.  Maybe, in desperation, they finally decided to do that which they had no intention of doing previously.  Expecting only a modest windfall, instead to find a lifeline, a treasure chest of riches, bequeathed down through the decades from the hand of Junie to Robert to us.  What a tale that would make!

 

 

 

[sfcityduck]

Until someone identifies Robert and "Junie" this is all just speculation.  

I am not convinced by the story Heritage has told.  It rings a bit false in my ears.  That's why I did this research. 

What I found is a similar, but much more compelling story.  A human story, that isn't targeting comic collectors, but is accessible to all people. 

Again, my speculation might be wrong.  But, it is difficult for me to accept Heritage's story without some proof.  And they are giving us nothing.  

Giving us nothing, despite that they opine the story boosts the value of the books by "multiples."

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by sfcityduck

[MasterChief]

1 hour ago, reality_consensus said:

I recognized the coding on the front covers immediately, similar to those seen on several GA books obtained from a dealer who found around 150 books in a storage unit.

The Promise Collection books revealed thus far by Heritage have various covers markings, including two different distributor marks, each with and without the numeric month and day indicators. The "K" with the month/day inscription is the overall prominent marking.

The second distributor marking is the curly "C" with or without month/day. This particularly marking is interesting as it has similar characteristics to that of a distributor marking found on the Aurora pedigree. This may indicate that portions of the Promise Collection originated from the same western regional distributor as the Aurora books.