ASM 194- The Latest ASM Issue Blowing Up?
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235 posts in this topic

On 12/30/2021 at 4:50 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:
On 12/30/2021 at 6:06 AM, sledgehammer said:

In 1994, ASM 129 was a $325 book, ASM 238 was a $70 book and ASM 194 was a $9 book.

ASM 193 was an $8 book.

15 years was a long time for so few people to remotely care about the first appearance of the black cat.

The whole thing feels way too manufactured to me.

Isn’t that approximately the same amount of time required for people to care about the  1st appearance of The Punisher?  After all, ASM 129 didn’t pop until the success of the Punisher mini-series, right?

Maybe. The only pricing I have for ASM 129 at 15 years old shows it at $220. Hulk 181 was at $200.

I know 129 was not a key book around 1980, but I can't document 1985.

But there isn't anything that feels genuine about the prices generated by 194 to me.

Even a NM #300 was worth more than $50 by the time it was six years old.

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On 12/30/2021 at 10:29 PM, sledgehammer said:

Maybe. The only pricing I have for ASM 129 at 15 years old shows it at $220. Hulk 181 was at $200.

I know 129 was not a key book around 1980, but I can't document 1985.

But there isn't anything that feels genuine about the prices generated by 194 to me.

Even a NM #300 was worth more than $50 by the time it was six years old.

129 was a sub-$100 book until late 1980s. It popped big one year. His mini series is what juiced his popularity. The pics are from Overstreet's Price Bulletin Nos. 1-3. #1 from Summer 1986 - no price break out for #129. #2 from Winter 1986 - #129 is $12 and no breakout for 134 or 135. #3 from Summer 1987 - #129 is $20 (and added "very" to first appearance (:) and 134, 135, 161, 162, 201, 202 and 285 broken out. #238 is $3.50.

Bulletin #1 (not sure why they are rotated)

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Bulletin #2

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Bulletin #3

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On 12/31/2021 at 10:31 AM, jjonahjameson11 said:

Thanks for confirming the Punisher mini-series was the impetus for the rise in price of ASM 129.  I already knew it, but didn’t have the Overstreet’s to corroborate.

given the above, I see no reason to think that value of asm 194 is a ‘manipulated’ book

How could it be "manipulated"?

What I said is that it doesn't feel genuine to me.

I would say the exact same thing about Madame Web's first appearance in ASM 210.

I would have said a similar thing about Hydro Man's first appearance.

I said the same thing about Mantis in Avengers 112.

Seriously, in the 1981 overstreet, Hulk 180 was valued at $12, because it was the first appearance of Wolverine, and Hulk 181 was valued at $5.

Obviously, there was another impetus for that price explosion as well. Which screwed the hell out of my recent desire to put together a 152-200 Hulk run in VF.

:preach:

 

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On 12/31/2021 at 10:06 AM, Shrevvy said:

129 was a sub-$100 book until late 1980s. It popped big one year.

I appreciate the effort putting this up!

I love reviewing old pricing.

Any idea of what the early/mid 90's jump start to the rise of 101 was?

By 1994, a NM copy of 101 was pushing $200, so it's funny to see it languishing at 50% of the value of 121 and 122 in 1986.

Unless it was movie hype. Tongue in cheek.

 

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On 1/1/2022 at 8:54 AM, sledgehammer said:

I appreciate the effort putting this up!

I love reviewing old pricing.

Any idea of what the early/mid 90's jump start to the rise of 101 was?

By 1994, a NM copy of 101 was pushing $200, so it's funny to see it languishing at 50% of the value of 121 and 122 in 1986.

Unless it was movie hype. Tongue in cheek.

 

I'll pull out some more of the updates and bulletins. I was in high school at the time and doing maybe a dozen shows a year as a dealer. I remember the rise of the 101 coincided with maybe a new series? Fear #20 had become a hot book at the same time. By early to mid 1990s I had stopped doing shows.

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On 1/1/2022 at 6:57 AM, sledgehammer said:

How could it be "manipulated"?

What I said is that it doesn't feel genuine to me.

I would say the exact same thing about Madame Web's first appearance in ASM 210.

I would have said a similar thing about Hydro Man's first appearance.

I said the same thing about Mantis in Avengers 112.

Seriously, in the 1981 overstreet, Hulk 180 was valued at $12, because it was the first appearance of Wolverine, and Hulk 181 was valued at $5.

Obviously, there was another impetus for that price explosion as well. Which screwed the hell out of my recent desire to put together a 152-200 Hulk run in VF.

:preach:

 

Right, my bad.  The initial term that you used to describe the asm 194 price increase was ‘manufactured’

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On 1/1/2022 at 8:54 AM, sledgehammer said:

I appreciate the effort putting this up!

I love reviewing old pricing.

Any idea of what the early/mid 90's jump start to the rise of 101 was?

By 1994, a NM copy of 101 was pushing $200, so it's funny to see it languishing at 50% of the value of 121 and 122 in 1986.

Unless it was movie hype. Tongue in cheek.

 

By this time, the house of ideas ran out of ideas and decided the best approach to increase market share was to flood the market with mostly below average titles to take as much space as possible on a retailers new comic space, and therefore squeeze out space from other publications.

Morbius, along with other bad boy/darker content characters made additional appearances throughout the Marvel Universe at that time, along with receiving their own series (blaze, midnight sons, morbius, ghost rider, Nightstalkers, etc)

prices for 1st appearances of these characters went up as a result of the increased exposure 

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On 1/1/2022 at 10:16 PM, Randall Dowling said:

FWIW, I've observed several board members starting threads here to pump prices up on certain books that they then turn out to have troves of.  I'm not saying that the first appearance of the Black Cat isn't a key.  But to think that it has a sustainable price at $5k is pretty crazy to me given the other books that one could find for the same price that are actually scarce and keys.

This book is incredibly common.  The idea that it's worth an incredible amount in 9.8 (and only 9.8 as it's an unadulterated price drop as you go down in grade) because "there are only 416 copies in 9.8" is the best indication of irrational speculation I can think of.  If I had one, I'd be selling that puppy as fast as possible and spending it on something that is actually scarce.  Ask yourself this- would you rather have a 9.8 of ASM 194 or a mid-grade copy of ASM 14?  And ASM 14 isn't scarce but there are half as many certified copies as ASM 194 and only one is a 9.8.  

The time to buy this book was 20 years ago.  There have always been people pumping up books for their own financial gain at the expense of collectors and their enthusiasm.  Don't be either one of those guys.  2c

Totally agree.  It's the Black Cat:

 

ladi.jpg.ede45cc341df33db1dc09f5b2d7ff376.jpg

Edited by Mercury Man
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On 12/30/2021 at 4:06 AM, sledgehammer said:

In 1994, ASM 129 was a $325 book, ASM 238 was a $70 book and ASM 194 was a $9 book.

ASM 193 was an $8 book.

15 years was a long time for so few people to remotely care about the first appearance of the black cat.

The whole thing feels way too manufactured to me.

 

On 12/30/2021 at 7:29 PM, sledgehammer said:

Maybe. The only pricing I have for ASM 129 at 15 years old shows it at $220. Hulk 181 was at $200.

I know 129 was not a key book around 1980, but I can't document 1985.

 

 

On 12/31/2021 at 8:06 AM, Shrevvy said:

129 was a sub-$100 book until late 1980s. It popped big one year. His mini series is what juiced his popularity. The pics are from Overstreet's Price Bulletin Nos. 1-3. #1 from Summer 1986 - no price break out for #129. #2 from Winter 1986 - #129 is $12 and no breakout for 134 or 135. #3 from Summer 1987 - #129 is $20 (and added "very" to first appearance (:) and 134, 135, 161, 162, 201, 202 and 285 broken out. #238 is $3.50.

 

To go back even further, I still remember the days when the BA Spidey books that was an absolute must have for all true blue Spidey collectors were the matching duo of Spidey 121 and 122, with nobody even giving a seceond thought to Spidey 129.  :preach:

Of course, the big big Marvel BA book that was sitting at the top of the collecting hill at the time with no real serious challengers was the big squarebound Avengers 93 with the full Neal Adams classic cover and interiors.  :luhv:   :takeit:

As for it being manufactured, highly doubt it as its really all about movie related hype and the FB and IG talking heads adding fuel to the fire and whatever book like Spidey 194 is readily available in large quantity making it easy for the flippers to speculate and make money on before everybody finds out the emperor really has no clothes and the last one out is left holding the empty bag.  hm  

Edited by lou_fine
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On 1/2/2022 at 12:28 PM, lou_fine said:

 

Of course, the big big Marvel BA book that was sitting at the top of the collecting hill at the time with no real serious challengers was the big squarebound Avengers 93 with the full Neal Adams classic cover and interiors.  :luhv:   :takeit:

Yep, my first convention experience was in 1976 or 77. At $5 I had a choice between Nm'ish copies of Iron Man #1, Silver Surfer #1 and Avengers #93. It was no contest for the Avengers #93! I probably have 15-20 mid grade copies because it just seems like such a bargain anytime I see it.

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On 1/1/2022 at 7:16 PM, Randall Dowling said:

FWIW, I've observed several board members starting threads here to pump prices up on certain books that they then turn out to have troves of.  I'm not saying that the first appearance of the Black Cat isn't a key.  But to think that it has a sustainable price at $5k is pretty crazy to me given the other books that one could find for the same price that are actually scarce and keys.

This book is incredibly common.  The idea that it's worth an incredible amount in 9.8 (and only 9.8 as it's an unadulterated price drop as you go down in grade) because "there are only 416 copies in 9.8" is the best indication of irrational speculation I can think of.  If I had one, I'd be selling that puppy as fast as possible and spending it on something that is actually scarce.  Ask yourself this- would you rather have a 9.8 of ASM 194 or a mid-grade copy of ASM 14?  And ASM 14 isn't scarce but there are half as many certified copies as ASM 194 and only one is a 9.8.  

The time to buy this book was 20 years ago.  There have always been people pumping up books for their own financial gain at the expense of collectors and their enthusiasm.  Don't be either one of those guys.  2c

Come on.  Everybody knows that J. Scott Campbell is the sole reason this character has spiked as it has over the recent years.  :preach:

-J.

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On 1/1/2022 at 8:54 AM, sledgehammer said:

I appreciate the effort putting this up!

I love reviewing old pricing.

Any idea of what the early/mid 90's jump start to the rise of 101 was?

By 1994, a NM copy of 101 was pushing $200, so it's funny to see it languishing at 50% of the value of 121 and 122 in 1986.

Unless it was movie hype. Tongue in cheek.

 

Update #22 Jul/Aug 1992
#101 $50.00
#102 $60.00
Fear #20 $5.00

Update #23 Sep/Oct 1992
#101 $75.00
#102 $65.00
Fear #20 $7.50

Update #24 Nov/Dec 1992
#101 $90.00
#102 $75.00
Fear #20 $15.00

Update #25 Jan/Feb 1993
#101 $100.00
#102 $80.00
Fear #20 $18.00

Morbius' origin was worth more than his first appearance up until fall 1992. I remember Fear #20 getting hot. It was a fun time in the hobby. These old Bulletins and Updates are great to read again.

Rotated scans again...

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On 1/2/2022 at 1:28 PM, lou_fine said:

As for it being manufactured, highly doubt it as its really all about movie related hype and the FB and IG talking heads adding fuel to the fire and whatever book like Spidey 194 is readily available in large quantity making it easy for the flippers to speculate and make money on before everybody finds out the emperor really has no clothes and the last one out is left holding the empty bag.  hm  

Agreed. When a book is somewhere in the approximate neighborhood of low quantity (say under 40 on Copper/Modern in 9.6 and higher and under 30 on Bronze in 9.4 or higher)  its way too difficult for the Flippers/Speculators/Social Media bandwagon jumpers/etc get a hold of copies in order to get the machinations flowing to make the fast bank they require.

2616 in 9.4 or higher for a Bronze Age book in very high population and extremely high number for an allegedly difficult book to find in high grade.  My opinion remains those purchasing these at 5-6K in 9.8 or below don't want to be holding them when Flippers/Speculators etc move to their next ASM targets. Rules of Musical Chairs apply.

<sarcasm> Buh Buh Buh its so rare there are "only" 469 in CGC 9.8 and CGC 9.9 combined , and only 1058 in CGC 9.6  :)  </sarcasm>

Above represents my opinion, except for specific numbers stated in 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, those numbers are easily verified via CGC census. 

image.png.f4a3aee9d9399ed4597255f7582404b3.png

Edited by MAR1979
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On 1/4/2022 at 8:40 AM, Shrevvy said:

Update #25 Jan/Feb 1993
#101 $100.00
#102 $80.00
Fear #20 $18.00

Morbius' origin was worth more than his first appearance up until fall 1992. I remember Fear #20 getting hot. It was a fun time in the hobby. These old Bulletins and Updates are great to read again.

Yep.

20 years ago, some people were already dropping $500 or more on CGC 9.4 102s.

It really hasn't kept up at all.

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On 1/4/2022 at 7:06 AM, MAR1979 said:

Agreed. When a book is somewhere in the approximate neighborhood of low quantity (say under 40 on Copper/Modern in 9.6 and higher and under 30 on Bronze in 9.4 or higher)  its way too difficult for the Flippers/Speculators/Social Media bandwagon jumpers/etc get a hold of copies in order to get the machinations flowing to make the fast bank they require.

2616 in 9.4 or higher for a Bronze Age book in very high population and extremely high number for an allegedly difficult book to find in high grade.  My opinion remains those purchasing these at 5-6K in 9.8 or below don't want to be holding them when Flippers/Speculators etc move to their next ASM targets. Rules of Musical Chairs apply.

<sarcasm> Buh Buh Buh its so rare there are "only" 469 in CGC 9.8 and CGC 9.9 combined , and only 1058 in CGC 9.6  :)  </sarcasm>

Above represents my opinion, except for specific numbers stated in 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, those numbers are easily verified via CGC census. 

image.png.f4a3aee9d9399ed4597255f7582404b3.png

...and if you think that is "a lot" in a 9.8, star wars 1 has just under 800.  :ohnoez:

-J.

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