Serious eBay CGC issue not to be overlooked 3 3

[Hulksdaddy1]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:07 PM, Lazyboy said:

So the buyer is suspect, but the seller definitely doesn't have a shady past, didn't submit the book, and wasn't pleased when it didn't note the added pieces?

Plus, if the OP provides pictures, there's a very, very good chance that we can confirm it's the same book.

We don't know the buyer, don't know the seller. Just have the OP. The only info we have is that a CGC graded book was purchased and delivered. The buyer bought CGC's opinion, which may have been wrong, but that has nothing to do with the seller.

Throw in that the buyer then altered the merchandise, and there is no reason the seller should be on the hook for it. The seller is without fault.

[Lazyboy]

On 8/2/2021 at 10:16 PM, Hulksdaddy1 said:

We don't know the buyer, don't know the seller. Just have the OP. The only info we have is that a CGC graded book was purchased and delivered. The buyer bought CGC's opinion, which may have been wrong, but that has nothing to do with the seller.

Throw in that the buyer then altered the merchandise, and there is no reason the seller should be on the hook for it. The seller is without fault.

The opinion is not the problem. The item was factually misrepresented and it doesn't matter what steps needed to be taken to discover that.

The seller is responsible for the item being delivered to the buyer. If the item is damaged, destroyed or lost during shipping, that's the seller's problem. If the seller is smart, they will have the ability to make it the carrier's problem (or an issue for their own insurance if they do things that way), but it still goes back to the seller.

The seller is responsible for the correct, properly described item being delivered to the buyer. That can't be on the buyer. If there's anything wrong with the item, it's on the seller.

[Hulksdaddy1]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:38 PM, Lazyboy said:

The opinion is not the problem. The item was factually misrepresented and it doesn't matter what steps needed to be taken to discover that.

 

The seller did not misrepresent it. The buyer bought a CGC graded book. That's what they got.

 

On 8/2/2021 at 11:38 PM, Lazyboy said:

The seller is responsible for the item being delivered to the buyer. If the item is damaged, destroyed or lost during shipping, that's the seller's problem. 

 

Item was delivered as advertised. Buyer got what he bought.

 

On 8/2/2021 at 11:38 PM, Lazyboy said:

If the seller is smart, they will have the ability to make it the carrier's problem (or an issue for their own insurance if they do things that way), but it still goes back to the seller.

 

Incorrect. The carrier, just like the seller, did what they were supposed to do. To make it an issue with the carrier, or insurance on the sellers side, would be disingenuous at a minimum, fraudulent possibly.

 

On 8/2/2021 at 11:38 PM, Lazyboy said:

 

The seller is responsible for the correct, properly described item being delivered to the buyer. That can't be on the buyer. If there's anything wrong with the item, it's on the seller.

Which he did. The book, in it's slab, was exactly what the buyer purchased. He received it exactly as described. Raw, it would be a different story. Big difference between raw and third party graded.

[Hulksdaddy1]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:38 PM, Lazyboy said:

The opinion...

And you've been around comics, particularly CGC graded books, to know that opinion is the only reason they exist. You are literally buying their opinion.

[Lazyboy]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:02 PM, Hulksdaddy1 said:

And you've been around comics, particularly CGC graded books, to know that opinion is the only reason they exist. You are literally buying their opinion.

The grade is an opinion.

Colour touch is a fact.

Glue is a fact.

Pieces being added is a fact.

Of course, it is possible for CGC to get facts wrong, but that doesn't change the facts.

[Heronext]

Haven't there been some rare instances (recall a thread or two here years ago) where CGC has actually taken an interest in owning up to mistakes like this, and made everyone involved whole?

[Hulksdaddy1]

On 8/3/2021 at 12:07 AM, Lazyboy said:

The grade is an opinion.

Colour touch is a fact.

Glue is a fact.

Pieces being added is a fact.

Of course, it is possible for CGC to get facts wrong, but that doesn't change the facts.

You are buying their opinion if those facts are there or not. 

[Hulksdaddy1]

On 8/3/2021 at 12:07 AM, Heronext said:

Haven't there been some rare instances (recall a thread or two here years ago) where CGC has actually taken an interest in owning up to mistakes like this, and made everyone involved whole?

Yes, I believe there have been. The OP cracking it and resubmitting it will throw a monkey wrench in it though. Once a book leaves a slab, CGC's responsibility for it, whatever that may be, is over 

[Lazyboy]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:00 PM, Hulksdaddy1 said:

Incorrect. The carrier, just like the seller, did what they were supposed to do. To make it an issue with the carrier, or insurance on the sellers side, would be disingenuous at a minimum, fraudulent possibly.

You vastly missed the point, which was that if something happens to the book during transit, it is on the seller, even if they did nothing wrong/everything right.

That hypothetical is not directly related to this case, but is another instance of the seller's responsibility after the item leaves their hands, regardless of how "right" they are.

[Lazyboy]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:12 PM, Hulksdaddy1 said:

You are buying their opinion if those facts are there or not. 

No, you aren't. Facts don't change just because somebody didn't state them. If a book is not represented properly, it's not represented properly. End of story. People can go as far back along the chain as they want to find the person responsible, but that person is never the buyer.

[Hulksdaddy1]

On 8/3/2021 at 12:14 AM, Lazyboy said:

You vastly missed the point, which was that if something happens to the book during transit, it is on the seller, even if they did nothing wrong/everything right.

That hypothetical is not directly related to this case, but is another instance of the seller's responsibility after the item leaves their hands, regardless of how "right" they are.

Completely different, and you're right, doesn't relate to this case. Here, the seller completed the transaction perfectly, delivering exactly what was purchased. 

[Hulksdaddy1]

On 8/3/2021 at 12:17 AM, Lazyboy said:

No, you aren't. Facts don't change just because somebody didn't state them. If a book is not represented properly, it's not represented properly. End of story. People can go as far back along the chain as they want to find the person responsible, but that person is never the buyer.

Yes, you are. That's why it's entombed. You can't see it, you take their word for it, relying on their expertise. Simple as that. 

 

[Lazyboy]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:00 PM, Hulksdaddy1 said:

The book, in it's slab, was exactly what the buyer purchased. He received it exactly as described. Raw, it would be a different story. Big difference between raw and third party graded.

A slab is just a bunch of plastic, not a bulletproof vest that protects sellers from being responsible for an item not being represented properly. It only represents an extra look at the book, it doesn't change the book itself.

[Hulksdaddy1]

On 8/3/2021 at 12:27 AM, Lazyboy said:

A slab is just a bunch of plastic, not a bulletproof vest that protects sellers from being responsible for an item not being represented properly. It only represents an extra look at the book, it doesn't change the book itself.

Incorrect. Look at the price difference between raw and slabbed. That tells you it's not at all what you just stated. 

Seller represented it perfectly.

[Lightning55]

If CGC correctly examined the book the first time, as they were paid to do (presuming it is the same book, and likely is), this thread would not even exist.  Instead, the seller "inherited" a jackpot of misery. 

So.....don't sell expensive books on eBay, where the buyer's grandchildren will open a case 40 years later and win.

[Gaard]

It all depends on how the book was described...

"this book is x" = seller's responsibility

"this book is a CGC x" = not seller's responsibility

Edited August 3, 2021 by Gaard

[Randall Ries]

Not sure why the argument. Seller sold the book as is with a purple label stating the degree of resto. Buyer bought it. Cracked it out and noticed something not to his liking. Resubs it and gets delivered a little more bad news. A little more resto than previously known. Perhaps the date of initial resto would help just to see what CGC considered resto at that time. Everyone here knows you bust a book out to get it regraded you are spinning the big "Price Is Right" wheel. CGC changes its grading criteria almost monthly, it seems. Today's 9.0 may be tomorrows 7.0. Or the day afters 9.6.

All of that means zippo. The book was removed from its tomb. End of story. There are myriad scenarios that could be described and postulated and none of them are worth a damn. Say "IF" and "Yeah But" and "Possibly" all you like. Introduce all the theories and conspiracies you like. The book left the slab. End of that story.

5 things one can do:

1. Enjoy the book as a raw since he isn't a "slab guy".
2. Put it in a glass case like "Annabelle" so it can never harm anyone ever again.
3. Throw it in the wood stove
4. Suck it up and don't buy restored books anymore
5. Deal with it like an adult and don't blame everyone else when your "sleuthing" brings results you don't like

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 8/3/2021 at 8:27 AM, Randall Ries said:

5 things one can do:

1. Enjoy the book as a raw since he isn't a "slab guy".
2. Put it in a glass case like "Annabelle" so it can never harm anyone ever again.
3. Throw it in the wood stove
4. Suck it up and don't buy restored books anymore
5. Deal with it like an adult and don't blame everyone else when your "sleuthing" brings results you don't like

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

Number of things here that don't sit right with me, most have been covered. Most troubling is buying a slabbed book, cracking it and re-submitting in the hope of finding fault, when you are supposed to love raw.

That said there is a simple rule of thumb:

When you buy a slabbed book, you are buying an opinion. You are not buying something that Moses brought down from the mountain. It's not set in stone. 

You assume the risk as a buyer. A slab can hide many secrets whereas buying raw in most cases is safer because faults should be disclosed by the buyer and can't really be hidden.

Bottom line in this case: The Seller has done nothing wrong. The buyer rolled the dice when he purchased a slab....as we all do.

[rjpb]

If one expects to return a book after it has been cracked out of the slab because one finds issues with the book not mentioned on the label, then one better be prepared to return the book as puchased, meaning in the unopened slab it came in. Impossible you say? Exactly.

CGC misses stuff sometimes, and other times may even see stuff that isn't there (questionable trimming notations on what looks more like a miscut). I suppose if you could prove a seller sold something they new was misrepresented by the CGC label, you'd have a case for return, but the whole reason pay to have books slabbed to sell is to avoid arguments about grade and whether or not work was done, and what to call it when it has been. If you crack it out and disagree, or even if CGC comes up with a different grade or designation on resub, that's not the seller's problem, that's your problem (or possibly to your benefit), and maybe CGC's if you can convince them they really blew it.