Heritage Auctions, Jim Halperin and Market Manipulation 8 8

[BigLeagueCHEW]

On 12/3/2021 at 4:53 PM, Wolverinex said:

Pretty much he talks about the feedback from the gaming community.  Good to start around 7:33 when he gets responses from WATA and a large chunk of the rest of the video (28:53) is a lawyer discussing methodically about her take on the issues. I don't own any WATA games, so I don't really have  skin in the game but it's interesting video nonetheless.

Wata crock? 

[WolverineX]

On 12/3/2021 at 8:35 PM, BigLeagueCHEW said:

Wata crock? 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Wolverinex

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/3/2021 at 8:42 PM, Wolverinex said:

 

 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 12/3/2021 at 7:42 PM, Wolverinex said:

 

 

[Cat]

On 12/4/2021 at 3:48 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

'Help me, Raphael. I dropped my damn nunchuks!' 

[Maskedvigilante]

On 8/24/2021 at 1:31 AM, catman76 said:

So? People are still willing to bid even higher and buy the stuff. So he's making rich people pay even more, who cares.

Straight up robin hood

[BigLeagueCHEW]

On 12/5/2021 at 4:01 AM, JasonTodd69 said:

Straight up robin hood

[Mmehdy]

On 8/23/2021 at 11:53 AM, Tnexus said:

So full disclosure, this video below is primarily about Heritage Auctions and WATA Games and some very sketch market manipulation they appear to be involved in. However, there is one section that talks about how allegedly the owner of HA, Jim Halperin shill bids his own comic auctions on the website to boost the price. The video, done by Karl Jobst who is a well respected video game Youtuber is fantastic in its own right. It's a long watch, but absolutely worth watching as I think a lot of it relates to the comic market as well. With CGC entering the video game market, I'm curious to see what's going to happen.

 

 

this now  has over 1.43 million views and the follow up over 660K views...WOW

[JJ-4]

Late to this thread but wow, crazy story, it is worth your time to watch these videos if you have any interest in comics (we are all reading and posting on a dedicated comics website so that would be everyone).

[World Devourer]

On 8/25/2021 at 11:19 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

In the fine art world major dealers and auction houses regularly buy their own pieces to inflate values. They run to the press with stories of huge sales and then sell again a few years later. Total manipulation. Illegal? Sometimes. Unethical? Only if you have ethics, I guess. It's why I stopped collecting fine art despite being on the board of an art museum. 

This has been happening in other collectible arenas for years, but it's just now reached seven figure levels. 

A bunch of people are going to be stuck with some games that are worth a fraction of what they paid. 

Yes...and the same applies to comics. A la Daredevil #168, Iron Man #55. Ms. Marvel #1 etc etc

[Sweet Lou 14]

On 2/8/2022 at 2:42 PM, World Devourer said:

Yes...and the same applies to comics. A la Daredevil #168, Iron Man #55. Ms. Marvel #1 etc etc

You've mentioned those three specific issues in a couple of posts.  I'd like to understand more specifically what you're seeing.

For DD #168, I know there was that one absurd outlier sale last month -- $13,200 for a 9.8 WP on Heritage.  It takes two to end up with such a crazy result, but that second-place bidder clearly dodged a bullet and the "winner" is just as clearly in a world of hurt.

I decided to look up what I paid for my 9.8 WP copy back in June 2020, and it was $1,320 -- exactly 10% of that result.  GoCollect shows several other sales in the past year, ranging from $3,900 to $5,250 -- still a lot higher than I would ever want to pay for this book, but nowhere near the January Heritage result.  I don't think there has been any other sale anywhere near that, and judging by the asking prices on eBay (two copies being offered right now for $6,500) it doesn't seem like even the sellers believe in that price point.

So I'm curious, if the market corrects the way you expect it to, do you imagine FMV settling back around $5,000?  Or $3,000?  Or ... ?

Iron Man #55 has bounced around a little bit, with 9.6s selling mostly in the $4,000 - $5,500 range with a couple of outliers below that range.  Where would you expect the market to land if it corrects?

And finally, I'm actually not sure which Ms. Marvel #1 you are referring to -- 1970s Carol Danvers or the much more recent Kamala Khan title?  Either way I would be curious to know what you're expecting for this book as well.

Not trying to hold you to anything, I just find these thought experiments interesting.  The market has been in a frenzy for a while now, and I do think it's worth questioning when and to what extent it will correct.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Sweet Lou 14

[WolverineX]

On 8/23/2021 at 2:53 PM, Tnexus said:

So full disclosure, this video below is primarily about Heritage Auctions and WATA Games and some very sketch market manipulation they appear to be involved in. However, there is one section that talks about how allegedly the owner of HA, Jim Halperin shill bids his own comic auctions on the website to boost the price. The video, done by Karl Jobst who is a well respected video game Youtuber is fantastic in its own right. It's a long watch, but absolutely worth watching as I think a lot of it relates to the comic market as well. With CGC entering the video game market, I'm curious to see what's going to happen.

 

 

So VHS ?  Though I guess it may not be as bad since it is VGA and not WATA.  

 

@alexgross.com

 

https://www.chron.com/culture/tv/article/Great-Scott-Rare-Back-to-the-Future-VHS-17248932.php

 

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Wolverinex

[Cat]

On 6/18/2022 at 8:57 PM, Wolverinex said:

So VHS ?    

 

@alexgross.com

 

https://www.chron.com/culture/tv/article/Great-Scott-Rare-Back-to-the-Future-VHS-17248932.php

 

 

So they've already moved on to the next rort? 

[WolverineX]

On 6/18/2022 at 7:22 AM, Cat said:

So they've already moved on to the next rort? 

I saw this posted everywhere on Twitter and my first thought was WATA

[Cat]

On 6/18/2022 at 9:40 PM, Wolverinex said:

I saw this posted everywhere on Twitter and my first thought was WATA

I can see this being defended by people pointing out that it's from the actor's personal collection. I don't think that holds much weight, certainly not 75k's worth. I reckon video games will go quiet for a while, now that everything is in the open and there's lawsuits, and VHS is going to start as the new cash cow 'must-have' collectible that's suddenly gained status and value overnight. 

[Sweet Lou 14]

On 6/18/2022 at 7:43 AM, Cat said:

I can see this being defended by people pointing out that it's from the actor's personal collection. I don't think that holds much weight, certainly not 75k's worth. I reckon video games will go quiet for a while, now that everything is in the open and there's lawsuits, and VHS is going to start as the new cash cow 'must-have' collectible that's suddenly gained status and value overnight. 

Given how badly VHS tapes are known to degrade, I seriously question the value of old tapes as a collectible.  I wouldn't touch this entire market segment.

[SpideyFein]

I’m sure most would agree, but 75K for this is Bananas, like crazy bananas. Graded VHS are fairly new to the market, and all of the sudden a 75k sale. We all know where this is headed. Next is a Robert Englund owned sealed Nightmare On Elmstreet  for 150k, and so on! I love grading like the next fellow, but grading a VHS suddenly raises its value 30-60k? C’mon. Anyhow, we’ll ride the wave like video games. These are both markets I love by the way, and I can’t help but feel this sense of exploitation once again. 

[Tnexus]

On 6/18/2022 at 8:44 AM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

Given how badly VHS tapes are known to degrade, I seriously question the value of old tapes as a collectible.  I wouldn't touch this entire market segment.

You're not paying $75,000 for the VHS. You're paying $75,000 for the piece of plastic around the VHS.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Tnexus

[KingOfRulers]

On 6/18/2022 at 12:19 PM, SpideyFein said:

I’m sure most would agree, but 75K for this is Bananas, like crazy bananas. Graded VHS are fairly new to the market, and all of the sudden a 75k sale. We all know where this is headed. Next is a Robert Englund owned sealed Nightmare On Elmstreet  for 150k, and so on! I love grading like the next fellow, but grading a VHS suddenly raises its value 30-60k? C’mon. Anyhow, we’ll ride the wave like video games. These are both markets I love by the way, and I can’t help but feel this sense of exploitation once again. 

I definitely think the graded VHS collectible market is similar to the graded video game collectible market, except even more scammy with greater potential for market manipulation.

Vintage comics books have had collectors of back issues for decades. Well over 50 years. It is a market that has grown organically, over time. Some eras and books have been more speculative than others, but in general it is a well established collectible market. It was through decades of gradual growth that brought a market for CGC to play a major role, and which created auction houses for comic books, or gave them opportunities to be showcased in multi-product auction houses.

VHS is the complete opposite story. VHS tapes as a collectible in large part didn't exist until the grading company and auction houses brought it to market. In the instance of VHS tapes, the grading and auction houses existed first, and are attempting to build a market of collectors, rather than the pool of collectors existing first.

Edited June 18, 2022 by KingOfRulers

[Courageous Cat]

when will this absurdity end? Not soon enough IMO