Promises Collection Dagar #15 9.6 with rusty staples? 1 1

[Cat-Man_America]

On 8/29/2021 at 4:46 PM, MrBedrock said:

I saw a 9.something book where the staples were completely rusted out and still oxidizing. This occurred after the book was graded and was a result of poor storage in a safe that induced condensation inside of the holder.

Maybe CGC's and/or Heritage's safes are faulty and causing this rust? Lord knows the grades already show an inclination towards ineptness. What if this type of staple rust is starting to happen on all of the books in the collection? Can you imagine how damaging rust on every one of the books in this collection would be?

I, for one, could never recommend that anyone bid on any of these books until there is a sufficient explanation.

I'm ratcheting back following books from this collection.  I've become wary of false Promises. 

I do love the sarcasm in your post though.   ...That's why I'm expecting to see you crack out your Promise books and spray them with Rust-Oleum any day now!   

Your comment about safe storage and rust is a legit topic.  There are safes, ...and there are not-so-safes.  Long term collecting of high grade books requires proper storage,  This is certainly a serious issue that's worthy of a separate thread.

As for Promise books being stored for any length of time before they hit the auction block, that seems unlikely.  I'd be surprised if the CGC graders had time to eat regularly and change clothes in the rush to get these books out the door and into the loving arms of the auction house.  My suspicion is that these staples looked exactly the same two or three years ago as they do today ...irrespective of grading.

Below is an article some dude wrote about this pedigree:

Spoiler

While there've been no accusations of fraud or malicious behavior, questions raised about the success of the Promise Collection Pedigree and the noble story of the two brothers Korean War vow persist: 

1) "It's all about the Benjamins, baby" theory. This viewpoint holds that the prestige (bragging rights) of this newly anointed pedigree with it's heartfelt story of patriotism and brotherly devotion will fuel it's success over any negative publicity generated by those questioning the grades, hype and appearances of manipulation of the process.

2) The short decisive war theory. Both the auction house (HA) and the grading service (the CGC) rake in profits with a blitzkrieg approach to marketing while sidestepping criticism and appearances of conflicted interest or questions about the legitimacy of the pedigree.

3) Job promotions and consolidation of power theory. As this pedigree received broad public attention a number of events were set in motion including the buy-out of the CGC, Matt Nelson's promotion to President of the CGC and the ascension of Heritage to a position of being undisputed leader of comic auctioneers.  By controlling the messaging surrounding the origins of the pedigree it allows both parties to weather criticism. HA has weathered criticism before. This is sort of like going all-in on a weak poker hand and bluffing. The theory being that if you have enough chips to back up your play and hold on long enough the critics will all fold. 

All of these hypothetical situations have been debated on-line and/or discussed privately among collectors. None of the criticisms leveled at HA and the CGC are provable regardless of whether any are true. Trying to look at this situation objectively, strictly from an observer's standpoint, just the suspicion of hanky-panky in the grading and marketing of this pedigree isn't good for the hobby as it calls into question consistency and fairness of grading practices.  

One other troubling aspect not touched on are remarks that leave the impression of overzealousness in regard to the grading and promotion of this collection. The pride at unearthing this Holy Grail is entirely understandable, but for some the Promise Collection has been projected as being a next generation Edgar Church find ...as if that somehow justifies the higher grades attributed. Dear graders, I know the Edgar Church pedigree. Edgar Church's comics are friends of mine. The Promise Collection is no Edgar Church pedigree. 

There's a simpler theory about this collection which may warrant consideration: Some folks at HA and the CGC may have gotten a bit carried away with wanting to make this collection and pedigree into a "statement" resulting in too many loose grades that draw attention to themselves. If the grades hadn't been so stratospherically high and easily contestable through comparison with other prestigious pedigree books, this mess might've flown under the radar, but GA books with obvious handling flaws given the status of highest grade can't be easily swept under the carpet.

Joseph Heller would've probably appreciated the no-win scenario posed by grade jockeying of pedigreed books to achieve "best" when scrupulous grading won't generate as much commercial buzz. Publicity rules, and this pedigree appears to have gotten the royal treatment. Regardless of where the truth falls the gamble paid off judging from the results of the first Heritage Auction of Promise books. Some bidders may have been mesmerized by the grade which is why the standard caution to collectors is to always buy the book, not the grade.  That's another way of saying gauge the book's appearance, not the grader's opinion of it.  
 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Cat-Man_America
good ale!

[woowoo]

On 8/29/2021 at 2:46 PM, MrBedrock said:

I saw a 9.something book where the staples were completely rusted out and still oxidizing. This occurred after the book was graded and was a result of poor storage in a safe that induced condensation inside of the holder.

Maybe CGC's and/or Heritage's safes are faulty and causing this rust? Lord knows the grades already show an inclination towards ineptness. What if this type of staple rust is starting to happen on all of the books in the collection? Can you imagine how damaging rust on every one of the books in this collection would be?

I, for one, could never recommend that anyone bid on any of these books until there is a sufficient explanation.

Well me for 1 has not bid on any book's since i am waiting for and ice age Dealer promise for a copy of Marvel 1 still 

[MrBedrock]

On 8/29/2021 at 5:10 PM, woowoo said:

Well me for 1 has not bid on any book's since i am waiting for and ice age Dealer promise for a copy of Marvel 1 still 

It is really hard to find a properly over-graded copy with light rust on the staples. But I Promise one will turn up.

[tth2]

On 8/30/2021 at 6:10 AM, woowoo said:

Well me for 1 has not bid on any book's since i am waiting for and ice age Dealer promise for a copy of Marvel 1 still 

Having spent the last 25 years working overseas, I pride myself on being good at figuring out what non-native English speakers are trying to say/write, but your post has broken me. 

[woowoo]

On 8/29/2021 at 3:12 PM, MrBedrock said:

It is really hard to find a properly over-graded copy with light rust on the staples. But I Promise one will turn up.

 

[woowoo]

On 8/29/2021 at 5:34 PM, tth2 said:

Having spent the last 25 years working overseas, I pride myself on being good at figuring out what non-native English speakers are trying to say/write, but your post has broken me. 

@MrBedrock promised me something years ago Now it looks like i might collect when i am in this shape 

[Cat-Man_America]

On 8/29/2021 at 8:53 PM, woowoo said:

@MrBedrock promised me something years ago Now it looks like i might collect when i am in this shape 

That looks like an old style holder.  Hang in there, ...MrB might do another episode of What's Crackin' to get you out!

[Straw-Man]

On 8/29/2021 at 4:46 PM, MrBedrock said:

I saw a 9.something book where the staples were completely rusted out and still oxidizing. This occurred after the book was graded and was a result of poor storage in a safe that induced condensation inside of the holder.

Maybe CGC's and/or Heritage's safes are faulty and causing this rust? Lord knows the grades already show an inclination towards ineptness. What if this type of staple rust is starting to happen on all of the books in the collection? Can you imagine how damaging rust on every one of the books in this collection would be?

I, for one, could never recommend that anyone bid on any of these books until there is a sufficient explanation.

and that's why he's the smartest guy on the boards...

Edited August 30, 2021 by Straw-Man

[Cat-Man_America]

On 8/30/2021 at 10:46 AM, Straw-Man said:

and that's why he's the smartest guy on the boards...

Richard is clearly the cleverest and if you ask anyone in the Astro's organization, the smartest dresser.  ...He's also a super nice guy! Furthermore, if Bedrock City craft beer is a reality he's forever in my pantheon of gods!  

There's something to be said for proper storage and some safes are poor choices for long term storage of comics, but not all fireproof safes are alike.  In fact, the causes for rapid staple deterioration are still being investigated.  

In respect to the Promise Collection the "faulty vaulty theory" is this...

My evidence is below and I'm feeling rather kipper ...or rather... chipper about it!

Spoiler

Here are random shots just taken of data-grade fireproof "safe-protected" books in my collection for many years...

Marvel Mystery #2 (not CGC, but 8.5 graded, moderate R)

 

Plastic Man #1 (Game of Death, CGC, 9.2 Universal) ...

 

Captain America #5 (CGC, 9.0 Universal) ...

 

 

If there was anything to worry about in respect to safe condensation causing rust I think I'd have seen evidence of it by now.  Do I have a few books with tarnished staples? Yep, some, but tarnish isn't rust and those books had tarnished staples when originally purchased.  I could provide more examples but these are excellent, being some of my older collected books (my Plastic Man and Captain America were directly submitted to the CGC for grading over eight years ago).

So, there's an elephant still in the room in regard to Promise Collection books and possible rusty staples on a high grade book.  Richard's sarcasm addresses the issue with wit, but I'm not sure it resolves the perceived problem in real world terms.

[Professor K]

On 8/29/2021 at 6:08 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

I'm ratcheting back following books from this collection.  I've become wary of false Promises. 

I do love the sarcasm in your post though.   ...That's why I'm expecting to see you crack out your Promise books and spray them with Rust-Oleum any day now!   

Your comment about safe storage and rust is a legit topic.  There are safes, ...and there are not-so-safes.  Long term collecting of high grade books requires proper storage,  This is certainly a serious issue that's worthy of a separate thread.

As for Promise books being stored for any length of time before they hit the auction block, that seems unlikely.  I'd be surprised if the CGC graders had time to eat regularly and change clothes in the rush to get these books out the door and into the loving arms of the auction house.  My suspicion is that these staples looked exactly the same two or three years ago as they do today ...irrespective of grading.

Below is an article some dude wrote about this pedigree:

  Hide contents

While there've been no accusations of fraud or malicious behavior, questions raised about the success of the Promise Collection Pedigree and the noble story of the two brothers Korean War vow persist: 

1) "It's all about the Benjamins, baby" theory. This viewpoint holds that the prestige (bragging rights) of this newly anointed pedigree with it's heartfelt story of patriotism and brotherly devotion will fuel it's success over any negative publicity generated by those questioning the grades, hype and appearances of manipulation of the process.

2) The short decisive war theory. Both the auction house (HA) and the grading service (the CGC) rake in profits with a blitzkrieg approach to marketing while sidestepping criticism and appearances of conflicted interest or questions about the legitimacy of the pedigree.

3) Job promotions and consolidation of power theory. As this pedigree received broad public attention a number of events were set in motion including the buy-out of the CGC, Matt Nelson's promotion to President of the CGC and the ascension of Heritage to a position of being undisputed leader of comic auctioneers.  By controlling the messaging surrounding the origins of the pedigree it allows both parties to weather criticism. HA has weathered criticism before. This is sort of like going all-in on a weak poker hand and bluffing. The theory being that if you have enough chips to back up your play and hold on long enough the critics will all fold. 

All of these hypothetical situations have been debated on-line and/or discussed privately among collectors. None of the criticisms leveled at HA and the CGC are provable regardless of whether any are true. Trying to look at this situation objectively, strictly from an observer's standpoint, just the suspicion of hanky-panky in the grading and marketing of this pedigree isn't good for the hobby as it calls into question consistency and fairness of grading practices.  

One other troubling aspect not touched on are remarks that leave the impression of overzealousness in regard to the grading and promotion of this collection. The pride at unearthing this Holy Grail is entirely understandable, but for some the Promise Collection has been projected as being a next generation Edgar Church find ...as if that somehow justifies the higher grades attributed. Dear graders, I know the Edgar Church pedigree. Edgar Church's comics are friends of mine. The Promise Collection is no Edgar Church pedigree. 

There's a simpler theory about this collection which may warrant consideration: Some folks at HA and the CGC may have gotten a bit carried away with wanting to make this collection and pedigree into a "statement" resulting in too many loose grades that draw attention to themselves. If the grades hadn't been so stratospherically high and easily contestable through comparison with other prestigious pedigree books, this mess might've flown under the radar, but GA books with obvious handling flaws given the status of highest grade can't be easily swept under the carpet.

Joseph Heller would've probably appreciated the no-win scenario posed by grade jockeying of pedigreed books to achieve "best" when scrupulous grading won't generate as much commercial buzz. Publicity rules, and this pedigree appears to have gotten the royal treatment. Regardless of where the truth falls the gamble paid off judging from the results of the first Heritage Auction of Promise books. Some bidders may have been mesmerized by the grade which is why the standard caution to collectors is to always buy the book, not the grade.  That's another way of saying gauge the book's appearance, not the grader's opinion of it.  

It's worth noting, there's another "forgotten" pedigree waiting in the wings preparing for gladiatorial combat on the auction floor in the wake of the Promise Collection saga. The Chinatown Pedigree is another collection of late war and post war comics that recently surfaced, but hasn't received much attention of late. Many of those high grade carefully stored books were graded by the CGC as well, and cover similar ground to the Promise Collection. Where are these books now? -- (crickets chirping in the background) -- Seeing these two shiny new high grade pedigrees going head to head in mortal auction combat would've been interesting, but that kind of exciting story was never likely to happen as it fails to maximize either the owner's or auction house's profits.

Thanks for posting that. Whoever that some dude person is he sure knows how to write. Very thorough and well expressed article. Did anybody catch the altered/parodied quote from a moment in US political history? 

[jimbo_7071]

On 8/25/2021 at 7:23 PM, Robot Man said:

Crazy. Just another example of either a gift grade or turning a blind eye. This is pretty minimal to some of what has been posted. The Gangsters Can’t Win in another thread was the worst yet. 

That one might be the be in the lead, but it has some competition close on its heels. The 9.6 Catman #29 was no better than 8.0 in reality.

[Flex Mentallo]

On 8/29/2021 at 10:46 PM, MrBedrock said:

I saw a 9.something book where the staples were completely rusted out and still oxidizing. This occurred after the book was graded and was a result of poor storage in a safe that induced condensation inside of the holder.

Maybe CGC's and/or Heritage's safes are faulty and causing this rust? Lord knows the grades already show an inclination towards ineptness. What if this type of staple rust is starting to happen on all of the books in the collection? Can you imagine how damaging rust on every one of the books in this collection would be?

I, for one, could never recommend that anyone bid on any of these books until there is a sufficient explanation.

Oh, the iron-y!

[Flex Mentallo]

On 8/30/2021 at 4:46 PM, Straw-Man said:

and that's why he's the smartest guy on the boards...

[lou_fine]

On 8/25/2021 at 4:23 PM, Robot Man said:

Crazy. Just another example of either a gift grade or turning a blind eye. This is pretty minimal to some of what has been posted. The Gangsters Can’t Win in another thread was the worst yet. 

Yeah, just can't understand some of these 9.8 gift grades that CGC has been throwing around for some of these Promise Collection pedigree books.  

Then again, it looks like they took out the grading whip and cracked it real hard against this "gorgeous" looking book and gave it only a CGC 8.5:   

[rjpb]

On 12/26/2021 at 1:32 PM, lou_fine said:

Yeah, just can't understand some of these 9.8 gift grades that CGC has been throwing around for some of these Promise Collection pedigree books.  

Then again, it looks like they took out the grading whip and cracked it real hard against this "gorgeous" looking book and gave it only a CGC 8.5:   

The scuffing looks like it could have been left by production rollers, and sort of production flaw that CGC often doesn't grade as harshly as they should. I suppose the tear at the top of the spine could be as well. I wouldn't grade it an 8.5 regardless of how the flaws came to be, but given CGC's leniency towards production flaws, if this book does have white ages and is otherwise structurally sound, this grade seems less offensive than giving a rusty stapled book a 9.6.

I wouldn't pay the promise premium, but if I were in the market for a higher grade copy of this book, I'd take this copy over an "8.5" with a big dust shadow or cream pages and a tanning halo. 

 

[lou_fine]

On 12/26/2021 at 3:24 PM, rjpb said:

The scuffing looks like it could have been left by production rollers, and sort of production flaw that CGC often doesn't grade as harshly as they should. I suppose the tear at the top of the spine could be as well.

All I can say to this then, is that when it comes time for you, me, and the rest of the boardies here to have our books graded, I certainly hope that CGC gives us the same benefit of the doubt and assume that all visible defects are simply production flaws.  

Somehow though, I get the distinct feeling that this is only reserved for books from the Promise Collection submitted to them by Heritage.   

[rjpb]

On 12/26/2021 at 4:02 PM, lou_fine said:

All I can say to this then, is that when it comes time for you, me, and the rest of the boardies here to have our books graded, I certainly hope that CGC gives us the same benefit of the doubt and assume that all visible defects are simply production flaws.  

Somehow though, I get the distinct feeling that this is only reserved for books from the Promise Collection submitted to them by Heritage.   

On that I would agree. Gift grades get handed out now and then, but rarely with such regularity. 

[jimbo_7071]

On 8/25/2021 at 4:18 PM, ttecwaf said:

It looks like there is rust on the lower staple on the Promise Dagar #15 grade 9.6.  While the book at first glance looks great I thought rusty staples prevented a grade that high.  Just curious.  Thanks. 

Psst . . . I heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend that the grading on these Promise books might be a little soft. But you didn't hear it from me.