**CLOSED** Trimmed FF issues 1 1

[Robert Doggett]

Hey there, everybody!

I've had my FF collection in boxes in a dark corner of my closet for a while now.  I just decided to open them up and go through them and found that a few of them appear to have been trimmed.  The reason I was going through them was to sell them individually so I found three books (so far) that were a little disappointing to me.  I want to be fair with my pricing and as honest as possible. I know it would be easier just to pass these along to the next guy but my conscience won't allow for that.  

I do know that trimming is the most frowned upon "restoration" that can happen to a book as it is 100% irreversible.  Without getting into a "What's my book worth" discussion, how hard of a hit do these books take as being trimmed?  

Issue 62 in the scans is there to represent an uncut book from the same era and issues 35, 61 and 66 are the trimmed books.  Just curious to find out from true collectors what the impact of this heinous act has on the price of these books.

Lastly, I'm sure this topic has been covered 100 ways to Sunday but I couldn't find what I was looking for in past threads.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Robert Doggett

[zzutak]

On 8/29/2021 at 8:16 AM, Robert Doggett said:

I want to be fair with my pricing and as honest as possible.

Silver Age FF are in high demand right now.  The best way to guarantee a "fair" price and an "honest" sale is to list the books on eBay using an auction format with a $0.99 starting bid.  Describe the books accurately and thoroughly, using clear images and carefully chosen words.  Easy. 

[Robert Doggett]

On 8/29/2021 at 11:41 AM, zzutak said:

Silver Age FF are in high demand right now.  The best way to guarantee a "fair" price and an "honest" sale is to list the books on eBay using an auction format with a $0.99 starting bid.  Describe the books accurately and thoroughly, using clear images and carefully chosen words.  Easy. 

Thanks, zzutak!  That makes the most sense.  I'll finish going through issues 60-75 and see what I can put on the boards here.  Nothing trimmed or otherwise restored (from what I can notice) will go up.  I have most of the original run of FFs from 60 on up.  I do not have issue 94, though.

[CK-1]

On 8/29/2021 at 11:41 AM, zzutak said:

Silver Age FF are in high demand right now.  The best way to guarantee a "fair" price and an "honest" sale is to list the books on eBay using an auction format with a $0.99 starting bid.  Describe the books accurately and thoroughly, using clear images and carefully chosen words.  Easy. 

In my opinion since books with restoration and especially trimming are in much lower demand, a $.99 auction might flop as only a small portion of the already small pool of silver age restored FF buyers will notice the auction. I would recommend starting at a 40-60% discount from what you'd price it at unrestored depending on how many edges are trimmed. 

From what I can see on GPA, graded FF keys with 1-2 sides trimmed and color touch are selling for sometimes only a 1/3 discount while about 1/2 is more common.

Definitely make clear any restoration and clearly show the quality and extent of trimming.

[zzutak]

Your approach is interesting; however, I'm not certain that GPA data are useful here.  Why?

• FF #35-61-66 are not keys (at least in the "old school" sense of the term).  Because unrestored copies of non-key FF are still relatively affordable, there is much less demand for restored specimens.  Because of the large difference in demand for keys and non-keys, pricing trends for keys generally don't correlate well with pricing trends for non-keys.
• CGC-certified books generally command a premium, all other things being equal.  When someone pays $100 for a CGC-certified copy, how much of that is being paid for the book, and how much of that is being paid for the certification?  In my experience, GPA data is not a great predictor of value for relatively inexpensive raw books (where the total cost of CGC-certification may be nearly as much as the market value of the raw book).

Might a $0.99 auction flop?  Sure.  But every dealer and small-time flipper is looking for new SA Marvel inventory right now.  Hence, it's a good time to sell marginal material.  I personally don't think one would get any action starting a trimmed book auction at a 40~60% discount.  But I guess the only downside to starting high (and hoping for the best) is the effort required to relist, and relist, and relist, and relist yet again.  Wake me up when you're ready to start your auctions of trimmed, non-key specimens at 10~20% of their unrestored value.   

[Lazyboy]

A minor difference in size does not mean a book is trimmed. It only means it might be a good idea to look closer for signs of trimming.

[LowGradeBronze]

I just dug out my FF issues 59 to 66 to compare: What I found was pretty interesting. 59 to 63 are all the same size. In particular my 61 and 62 are exactly the same size as each other. But my 65 & 66 are both about 4mm less tall than the rest and have def not been trimmed. They are very low grade. Sadly I haven't got a 64 to see whether the shorter size started with 64 or not. Likewise I don't have a 67 to see if 67 continued the run of shorter issues. Certainly by issue 73 (the next one I have) they were back to regular full height. The same height as 61 & 62. Hope this helps and can anyone else compare their 63 64 & 65 to see if my findings are valid and if 64 was regular height or shorter by 4mm? Also can anyone else confirm when the shorter issues stopped and returned to full height?

Edited August 30, 2021 by LowGradeBronze

[CK-1]

On 8/29/2021 at 8:18 PM, Lazyboy said:

A minor difference in size does not mean a book is trimmed. It only means it might be a good idea to look closer for signs of trimming.

While that's true, the difference shown in these photos is pretty large in some, and all of the comics shown that aren't references definitely look trimmed to my eyes (sharp edges, code stamp almost cut off).

[Robert Doggett]

On 8/30/2021 at 11:37 AM, CK-1 said:

While that's true, the difference shown in these photos is pretty large in some, and all of the comics shown that aren't references definitely look trimmed to my eyes (sharp edges, code stamp almost cut off).

Issue 66 especially.  35 and 61 is only about 1/8 inch but still brow raising.

[silverseeker]

On 8/29/2021 at 5:18 PM, Lazyboy said:

A minor difference in size does not mean a book is trimmed. It only means it might be a good idea to look closer for signs of trimming.

I totally agree with this, and it would be unfortunate to sell a book as trimmed if it's not indeed trimmed...

@Robert Doggett, your photos do a great job of showing the differences in height...how do the books compare in regards to their widths?

[Lazyboy]

On 8/30/2021 at 10:37 AM, CK-1 said:

While that's true, the difference shown in these photos is pretty large in some, and all of the comics shown that aren't references definitely look trimmed to my eyes (sharp edges, code stamp almost cut off).

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/332650-measuring-doesnt-work/

[Robert Doggett]

On 8/30/2021 at 2:05 PM, silverseeker said:

 

@Robert Doggett, your photos do a great job of showing the differences in height...how do the books compare in regards to their widths?

I’ll get those pics tonight.  Good point, more trimmed, less desirable.

[Robert Doggett]

It appears that they trimmed the right side of 35 and 66.  Issue 61 seems to be the correct width.

[The Lions Den]

While the overall size can be an indicator, there are also a number of other things to look for. A thorough examination of the cover edges and pages may reveal more clues...

[Tony S]

On 8/30/2021 at 6:00 PM, The Lions Den said:

While the overall size can be an indicator, there are also a number of other things to look for. A thorough examination of the cover edges and pages may reveal more clues...

Finally someone touches on the real answer. I was going to be more forceful but Lion's Den beat me to it. 

SIZE is the least reliable indicator of a book being trimmed.  Quality control was more a thought than a fact back in the day of vintage newsprint comic books.  Just a few weeks ago I sent an ASM 101 in for a client that I suspected might be  trimmed given that it was smaller than normal both length and width.  Came back universal CGC. I'm glad I didn't say anything and cause any unnecessary alarm. 

There is a sticky in this sub forum on how to detect restoration. I suck at detecting trimming.  But I have learned a 1/4" or ever more difference in size is not a reliable indicator of trimming. 
 

 

 

[Robert Doggett]

On 8/30/2021 at 4:32 PM, Lazyboy said:

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/332650-measuring-doesnt-work/

That was a very interesting read, Lazyboy!!  So the only way to truly know if it's been trimmed is send it in to get graded?  I'm no expert at restoration detection by any means.  I always thought trimming was something you could only tell with measurements.  Issues 61 and 66 came out in '66/'67. Issue 35 was a few years earlier.  So is this the era of sizing imperfections?

[The Lions Den]

On 8/30/2021 at 7:18 PM, Robert Doggett said:

That was a very interesting read, Lazyboy!!  So the only way to truly know if it's been trimmed is send it in to get graded?  I'm no expert at restoration detection by any means.  I always thought trimming was something you could only tell with measurements.  Issues 61 and 66 came out in '66/'67. Issue 35 was a few years earlier.  So is this the era of sizing imperfections?

I always try to keep in mind that these books were mass produced using cheap raw material and little attention to quality control...   

[Lazyboy]

On 8/30/2021 at 6:37 PM, The Lions Den said:

On 8/30/2021 at 6:18 PM, Robert Doggett said:

That was a very interesting read, Lazyboy!!  So the only way to truly know if it's been trimmed is send it in to get graded?  I'm no expert at restoration detection by any means.  I always thought trimming was something you could only tell with measurements.  Issues 61 and 66 came out in '66/'67. Issue 35 was a few years earlier.  So is this the era of sizing imperfections?

I always try to keep in mind that these books were mass produced using cheap raw material and little attention to quality control...   

Yeah, and this thread is about SA books. The books in my pictures in the thread I linked are from the early 90s, after years of (minor, but still...) production improvements. Even now, comic production is hardly perfect, though it is much better than it was decades ago.

[Robert Doggett]

On 8/30/2021 at 7:06 PM, Tony S said:

Finally someone touches on the real answer. I was going to be more forceful but Lion's Den beat me to it. 

SIZE is the least reliable indicator of a book being trimmed.  Quality control was more a thought than a fact back in the day of vintage newsprint comic books.  Just a few weeks ago I sent an ASM 101 in for a client that I suspected might be  trimmed given that it was smaller than normal both length and width.  Came back universal CGC. I'm glad I didn't say anything and cause any unnecessary alarm. 

There is a sticky in this sub forum on how to detect restoration. I suck at detecting trimming.  But I have learned a 1/4" or ever more difference in size is not a reliable indicator of trimming. 
 

 

 

Tony, you're my guy for clean and pressing on my silver age stuff.  That thread was impressive and I feel I can sleep soundly tonight for learning something new about something I care about!  I definitely appreciate the link!

[Robert Doggett]

On 8/30/2021 at 7:37 PM, The Lions Den said:

I always try to keep in mind that these books were mass produced using cheap raw material and little attention to quality control...   

After reading the thread Tony shared with us, I'm convinced that 35 and 61 were trimmed on the top and 66 got the total treatment with all three edges being trimmed.  It's sad but am super glad I had the opportunity to read it.