It appears that WATA and Heritage are colluding to pump up the graded videogame market. What are the implications for OA? 3 3

[RBerman]

On 9/8/2021 at 12:44 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

yes, its right here...

New Art (anthonyscomicbookart.com)

You were kidding, but thanks to that reminder, I picked up three little pieces! Anthony should give you a referral cut!

[jjonahjameson11]

On 9/8/2021 at 4:22 PM, RBerman said:

You were kidding, but thanks to that reminder, I picked up three little pieces! Anthony should give you a referral cut!

I was kidding, but happy to hear you were able to pick up some art from Anthony.

[Rick2you2]

On 9/8/2021 at 1:40 PM, RBerman said:

Is there a thread for "Art under $300" or such? If not, I'll start one. This is where I live! (Mostly)

No, but at the end of the year, there are votes on best purchases, and there is a "bargain" category which was $300 (or $500, I forget, as it has moved).

You may want to round it to $500, but it's your choice. You'll find it easier if you go up to $500.

 

[tth2]

On 9/8/2021 at 10:38 PM, delekkerste said:

I'm just reading this thread chronologically, so, I don't know if this has been answered already, but, Seth Abrahamson is a NYT contributor who also has his own audience on Substackm Twitter, etc. and he has been all over this scandal of late - I'm sure that's who he was referring to.

Covered by someone who sometimes writes for NYT is not the same as covered by NYT.

[Chicago Boy]

On 9/8/2021 at 9:38 AM, delekkerste said:

I'm just reading this thread chronologically, so, I don't know if this has been answered already, but, Seth Abrahamson is a NYT contributor who also has his own audience on Substackm Twitter, etc. and he has been all over this scandal of late - I'm sure that's who he was referring to.

Just catching up. Yes, when I think of Seth I think of NYT.  Sorry, that's where my head went.....thanks for connecting the dots for me.......

[MasterChief]

On 9/8/2021 at 9:03 PM, tth2 said:

On 9/8/2021 at 4:38 AM, delekkerste said:

I'm just reading this thread chronologically, so, I don't know if this has been answered already, but, Seth Abrahamson is a NYT contributor who also has his own audience on Substackm Twitter, etc. and he has been all over this scandal of late - I'm sure that's who he was referring to.

Covered by someone who sometimes writes for NYT is not the same as covered by NYT.

Some good comments in this thread.

If you'd like to read the original thread on the subject, which contains a very healthy and sometimes contentious debate, check out the below. It has links to all of the Abramson articles, including responses by Heritage and Mark Haspel, with a subsequent follow-up response by Abramson to the Haspel response. It also contains additional background information on Halperin's exploits in the coin hobby and his run-ins with the Feds.

BTW...for the old timers, the original thread is reminiscent of the early Halperin/Heritage/CGC conflict-of-interests debates post commencement of the comic book certification age. Those sure were some interesting times.  

Here’s the link to the thread…👇
 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by MasterChief

[Rick2you2]

On 9/10/2021 at 3:09 AM, MasterChief said:

Some good comments in this thread.

If you'd like to read the original thread on the subject, which contains a very healthy and sometimes contentious debate, check out the below. It contains links to all of the Abramson articles, including responses by Heritage and Mark Haspel, with a subsequent follow-up response by Abramson to the Haspel response. It also contains additional background information on Halperin's exploits in the coin hobby and his run-ins with the Feds.

BTW...for the old timers, the original thread is reminiscent of the early Halperin/Heritage/CGC conflict-of-interests debates post commencement of the comic book certification age. Those sure were some interesting times.
 

 

You left off the reference.

[comicwiz]

.

On the heels of the $3.6M AF 15 sale, would it change your view of "new price records" if it was bought by fractional owner platforms like Rally Rd?

What if it's an OA cover in the not too distant future?

As someone who has been keenly interested and involved in providing market value input in comics and toys in both printed and online guides,and an even wider field of collecting categories as an appraiser, the move toward fractional ownership acting to reset markets, and conversely, pricing out single person ownership of collectibles, is a topic which should raise concerns beyond the alleged "collusion" and "market manipulation."

In my opinion, these should be treated as outlier sales and ignored by the wider collecting communities.

Below, Business Insider covering the beat on the allegations, and touching on the above talking point:

Boosted by a record $2 million 'Super Mario Bros.' sale, the retro video game collector's market is being overrun by speculators looking to cash in
https://www.businessinsider.com/retro-gaming-market-being-overtaken-by-speculators-2021-9?fbclid=IwAR2pMUCn4tVoiEcF5v6JF75YBmIuO-Y38K6GGqH0-SNvgn_bSGGHQN8OSD0

[Rick2you2]

On 9/10/2021 at 7:34 AM, comicwiz said:

.

On the heels of the $3.6M AF 15 sale, would it change your view of "new price records" if it was bought by fractional owner platforms like Rally Rd?

What if it's an OA cover in the not too distant future?

As someone who has been keenly interested and involved in providing market value input in comics and toys in both printed and online guides,and an even wider field of collecting categories as an appraiser, the move toward fractional ownership acting to reset markets, and conversely, pricing out single person ownership of collectibles, is a topic which should raise concerns beyond the alleged "collusion" and "market manipulation."

In my opinion, these should be treated as outlier sales and ignored by the wider collecting communities.

Below, Business Insider covering the beat on the allegations, and touching on the above talking point:

Boosted by a record $2 million 'Super Mario Bros.' sale, the retro video game collector's market is being overrun by speculators looking to cash in
https://www.businessinsider.com/retro-gaming-market-being-overtaken-by-speculators-2021-9?fbclid=IwAR2pMUCn4tVoiEcF5v6JF75YBmIuO-Y38K6GGqH0-SNvgn_bSGGHQN8OSD0

No. Most collectors don’t travel in those rarified circles, but we do deal with pumped up dealer prices and other forms of market manipulation. So, if prices are manipulated from, say, 1M to 2M, by any forms, I just don’t care. A fool and his money are soon parted. If pricing for my stuff gets too high, I may simply switch to commissions, or even get out. The fun would be gone.

[comicwiz]

On 9/10/2021 at 8:20 AM, Rick2you2 said:

No. Most collectors don’t travel in those rarified circles, but we do deal with pumped up dealer prices and other forms of market manipulation. So, if prices are manipulated from, say, 1M to 2M, by any forms, I just don’t care. A fool and his money are soon parted. If pricing for my stuff gets too high, I may simply switch to commissions, or even get out. The fun would be gone.

Fair points. I guess I can relate because from a personal level, I'm fairly insulated from all this as someone that's been collecting for decades. But as someone who is still actively buying, reporting on values, and/or appraising, I struggle most trying to wade through trying to explain to someone looking to have their collection valued, and who is stuck on the idea that the values being thrown around are the new normal.

The other is the remarkable strides the whole concept of fractional ownership has made in such a short time - for those who don't recall, it's been six years from the time such ideas were hatched, and the wave of criticisms both received here and here. I'm certain I may be missing one or two others that rode through and got an unwelcome response by the community.

I also understand the day and night difference between sites like Rally Rd, who are running this under the appearance of conforming to SEC rules, giving fractional ownership an appearance of legitimacy, but the concept of gambling or betting on values and this constant upward trajectory seems just as ill-conceived as those old schemes that we all seemingly laughed off not that long ago. The only difference is now, they are dictating markets for us.

Edited September 10, 2021 by comicwiz

[AnkurJ]

Masterworks has been doing shared ownership of fine/pop/modern art for some time. It’s only a matter of time until these companies or Rally start this with original comic art.

With art bring one of a kind, it’s harder to ignore outliers as everyone will look for comparable results.

[vodou]

On 9/10/2021 at 10:46 AM, AnkurJ said:

It’s only a matter of time until these companies or Rally start this with original comic art.

Bring it! I am so ready to finally cash out, close up shop for good, and enjoy owning my new planet  

[Rick2you2]

On 9/10/2021 at 9:02 AM, comicwiz said:

Fair points. I guess I can relate because from a personal level, I'm fairly insulated from all this as someone that's been collecting for decades. But as someone who is still actively buying, reporting on values, and/or appraising, I struggle most trying to wade through trying to explain to someone looking to have their collection valued, and who is stuck on the idea that the values being thrown around are the new normal.

The other is the remarkable strides the whole concept of fractional ownership has made in such a short time - for those who don't recall, it's been six years from the time such ideas were hatched, and the wave of criticisms both received here and here. I'm certain I may be missing one or two others that rode through and got an unwelcome response by the community.

I also understand the day and night difference between sites like Rally Rd, who are running this under the appearance of conforming to SEC rules, giving fractional ownership an appearance of legitimacy, but the concept of gambling or betting on values and this constant upward trajectory seems just as ill-conceived as those old schemes that we all seemingly laughed off not that long ago. The only difference is now, they are dictating markets for us.

Conceptually, it isn’t much different than time shares, except with time shares, you at least get to use the place several weeks a year. Now some people apparently like them, but for others, they become albatrosses because of their annual costs, and the built in limits on their use. They literally will sometimes pay people to take them. 

Part of the fun of ownership is possession. Without it, this concept cannot go far; but if it does eventually get off the ground, watch the bubble burst when its limits sink in. I doubt people will pay to unload fractionals, but if it somehow develops steam, it could eventually lead to a market crash.

[batman_fan]

On 9/10/2021 at 10:22 AM, Rick2you2 said:

Conceptually, it isn’t much different than time shares, except with time shares, you at least get to use the place several weeks a year. Now some people apparently like them, but for others, they become albatrosses because of their annual costs, and the built in limits on their use. They literally will sometimes pay people to take them. 

Part of the fun of ownership is possession. Without it, this concept cannot go far; but if it does eventually get off the ground, watch the bubble burst when its limits sink in. I doubt people will pay to unload fractionals, but if it somehow develops steam, it could eventually lead to a market crash.

I have a great business where I sell time in a timeshare.  You can buy in one minute increments for the low low price of $20/minute.  Who wouldn’t like to brag to their family and friends about the little place they have in Aspen

[Chicago Boy]

On 9/10/2021 at 11:22 AM, Rick2you2 said:

Conceptually, it isn’t much different than time shares, except with time shares, you at least get to use the place several weeks a year. Now some people apparently like them, but for others, they become albatrosses because of their annual costs, and the built in limits on their use. They literally will sometimes pay people to take them. 

Part of the fun of ownership is possession. Without it, this concept cannot go far; but if it does eventually get off the ground, watch the bubble burst when its limits sink in. I doubt people will pay to unload fractionals, but if it somehow develops steam, it could eventually lead to a market crash.

Nail on head.  Part of fun of ownership is possession. Goldin Auctions is really pushing this fractional thing. I'm not sure how that comes into play

[MAR1979]

On 9/7/2021 at 2:02 PM, Ted_L said:

I don't disagree with you here and it's pretty obvious that dealers have been artificially pumping up the market by trading pieces back and forth.  However, I do think the nature of original art makes it much harder for pure investors to make a quick buck.  There's just not enough high level inventory for Heritage and other venues to make the same kind of money as with mass produced graded collectibles.  There's obviously some dealers/collectors doing really well these days, but at least these are people who've been in the hobby for years and not just jumping in now to pump and dump.

Regarding the hidden art out there, I do think a lot is the result of black hole collectors, artists such as Simonson, Austin and others keeping a lot of their art and people who were given art years ago who don't really know what they have.  I think there's also a certain amount of fear on the part of silver age collectors that the Kirby, Ditko or other estates might try to come for their artwork with questionable provenance, so a lot of this art has been kept private.  

 

 

Also in Collectibles like Trading Cards, Comic Art, Boxed Video Games condition is KING. With OCA condition is an afterthought. Thus no room for the alleged  WATA / Haspel brand of nepotistic fix-is-in manipulation. i would not be surprised if an investigation led to numerous counts of outright fraud  - for now we'll just say alleged fraud. 

Of course with Comic Art there is the OCA dealer merry-go-round

  

On 9/10/2021 at 1:24 PM, Chicago Boy said:

Nail on head.  Part of fun of ownership is possession. Goldin Auctions is really pushing this fractional thing. I'm not sure how that comes into play

If you are one of Goldin's or Cohen's buddies there is money to be made, if you are not then you will play the part of the rube.

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by MAR1979

[Chicago Boy]

On 9/13/2021 at 9:00 PM, MAR1979 said:

 

Also in Collectibles like Trading Cards, Comic Art, Boxed Video Games condition is KING. With OCA condition is an afterthought. Thus no room for the alleged  WATA / Haspel brand of nepotistic fix-is-in manipulation.  Of course there is the OCA dealer merry-go-round

Anyone else read of manufactured unsealed boxes with this scandal ?

[inovrmihd]

On 9/10/2021 at 4:34 AM, comicwiz said:

.

On the heels of the $3.6M AF 15 sale, would it change your view of "new price records" if it was bought by fractional owner platforms like Rally Rd?

What if it's an OA cover in the not too distant future?

As someone who has been keenly interested and involved in providing market value input in comics and toys in both printed and online guides,and an even wider field of collecting categories as an appraiser, the move toward fractional ownership acting to reset markets, and conversely, pricing out single person ownership of collectibles, is a topic which should raise concerns beyond the alleged "collusion" and "market manipulation."

In my opinion, these should be treated as outlier sales and ignored by the wider collecting communities.

Below, Business Insider covering the beat on the allegations, and touching on the above talking point:

Boosted by a record $2 million 'Super Mario Bros.' sale, the retro video game collector's market is being overrun by speculators looking to cash in
https://www.businessinsider.com/retro-gaming-market-being-overtaken-by-speculators-2021-9?fbclid=IwAR2pMUCn4tVoiEcF5v6JF75YBmIuO-Y38K6GGqH0-SNvgn_bSGGHQN8OSD0

 

Depends on whether Rally is temporary or a permanent part of the landscape.  If there is a lot of interest in fractional ownership, does it really matter?  If Rally Road etc. has enough buying power, than they will set the new clearing prices against those who can afford physical ownership, and everyone else will be priced out.  It seems to me that the question right now is how much interest there will be, and whether it can go from keys to common books ( harder to market to fractional investors , assuming there is no marketing of a run ( the equivalent of a broad based stock index).  I just saw this announcement:  

https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/117460/curio-and-introve-launch-first-of-its-kind-partnership-for-nfts-tethered-to-rare-comic-book

[Rick2you2]

On 9/14/2021 at 1:36 AM, inovrmihd said:

https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/117460/curio-and-introve-launch-first-of-its-kind-partnership-for-nfts-tethered-to-rare-comic-book

This may explain the prices paid at the Sept. auction for Peanuts and the DD page.

[comicwiz]

On 9/14/2021 at 1:36 AM, inovrmihd said:

https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/117460/curio-and-introve-launch-first-of-its-kind-partnership-for-nfts-tethered-to-rare-comic-book

Where's @Flee-Marquette - we may need an updated animated gif of Harley in the digital age version of setting-up at a carnival or circus attraction.