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CGC does not encapsulate Authenticated Cards
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55 posts in this topic

I recently called in advance of submitting several trimmed MtG collectors edition cards to inquire regarding authenticating them.  I was told that this was okay and then they sent back the cards with the label in a top loader without encapsulation.  There is no way for me to prove to a potential buyer that I have paid for this service so it is worthless.  If you do want this kind of service, you can use PSA altered authentic or Becket.  Do not use CGC as they do not provide the very basic 3rd party authentication service for card authentication… slabbing the card.  
 

further, although I believe that their definition is wrong and their graders are correct, their definition defines an alteration as something that is changed to be “deceptive” and they cite an example of coloring in a border and such.  These cards were not this case and were not misrepresented or deceptive, gold bordered cards that were trimmed so they could be shuffled back in the day when we didn’t use sleeves on our cards… man were we stupid.  
 

anyways… i think that definition is wrong, any alteration that is different from a factory churned card is an alteration but this just goes to further show that they don’t have consistency nor will they be able to answer clear questions when you call customer support… because there aren’t good answers to this crazy web.

Here’s the best part… they are considering offering this service I. The future so I may have the opportunity to resubmit my cards.  No thanks CCG.  That’s the last time.  First it was cases you could open by hand now you don’t authenticate cards.  
 

you don’t belong in the card business

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I totally get it if you're done with CGC, and while I'm certainly not an expert on this issue, from the I read it I think you've raised some issues that seem like CGC could address better.

If you haven't done so (and you may have), I think you could fully lay out your case in an email to CGC, but FULLY lay it out, all logic and facts, no emotion.  Lay it out like a lawyer trying to win a judgment with an expert arbitrator (not a jury).

1.  Start with a picture of 1 card in question.  Show a picture, explain everything about it, and explain the alterations.

2.  Screenshots of whatever policy CGC has online regarding the issue.

3.  Date and time of the call, and brief relevant details of what was discussed, and what the CGC position is.'

4.  Copies of your invoice, including dates (including shipping info if available), and proof of payment.

5.  Pictures of what you got back from CGC, obviously including any explanations about why they sent you whatever they sent you.

6.  Dates/times/copies/summaries of any contact you've had with cgc since then.

7.  A summary of what issues/judgments that you disagree with, with references to the above evidence, and possibly citing other references or policies that exist with other expert sources.   Lay out your issues in bullet points, be clear and concise, use references, possibly arrows or highlights.  

Obviously a lot of work, and it may not be worth it to you.  But maybe it is, especially if you think if you get your point across you may be entitled to a full or partial refund of some time.

 

 

 

 

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There’s nothing here for them to do.  The purpose of the post is for people to understand that they don’t authenticate cards at CGC for altered cards.  
 

I understand their policy now.  Hopefully people who read this who need this service can make sense of it.  
 

this is a very particular issue.   It is not a grading issue.  Those people did a fine job.  I received the appropriate designation.

What they fail to understand and what I have received in feedback from other posts is a sort of “we authenticated the cards” and I’m sorry but I have to draw a line.

I make no dispute that what they have done in terms of grading is correct.  I make an argument that what they are doing is very problematic.

1. People do not pay for a graders opinion.  This is false.  We pay for a 3rd party opinion.

2. if they choose not to encapsulate the card that is also their absolute right but they can not claim to have provided the service.

3. I cannot sell this card.  It is not provable that this service has been performed.  The point of a grading service, the very purpose of their existence is to provide opinions that are “3rd” party.  That is to say that a buyer of a card can observe that a service has been rendered and a receipt can be shown that it matches. 
 

I don’t have that… they are pretending that they have verified my card just because a grader has said so… that is meaningless if I have no way to PROVE to another person, a buyer, that this is a true statement.  
 

This is not okay.  They can choose not to encapsulate the coin, they can choose any rules they wish.  But they cannot say that they provide a service when they have not.  They should issue a refund because they have not authenticated the card…

telling me the card is real is not what 3rd party authentication is

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On 9/29/2021 at 2:09 PM, revat said:

totally get it if you're done with CGC, and while I'm certainly not an expert on this issue, from the I read it I think you've raised some issues that seem like CGC could address better.

There’s actually no dispute on facts.  We (cgc and I) are in total agreement on the designation of the cards.

let me make it real simple.  Look at the pictures below.  These are cards they are saying are “authenticated”. I say they are not.

this is not a matter of opinion for me alone this is something that others who are having cards graded need to be aware of.  This is a picture of over 6000 in 3 MTG cards, huge amount of money.  Would you buy this off of eBay?  Would you consider this an authenticated card?  Do you consider yourself protected?  What value is this authentication providing?

I could have waited longer and spent more money at PSA, they do slab under AA… authentic altered.  SGC does as well as becket.  This is a common practice.

just look at the pictures and make up your own mind.  Would you feel good buying that?

Don’t get fooled 

54B10E91-E5B0-4245-A5B1-6FE1064AEE92.jpeg

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On 9/29/2021 at 7:04 PM, PokemanDude90 said:

After reading about this on here and on the other thread I still have no idea what we are talking about.

Are people trimming Magic cards and then subsequently getting mad when CGC isn’t grading them? What is going on lmao

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People used to trim magic cards from that set because they had square corners.  We didn’t sleeve cards when we were kids.  So we couldn’t shuffle them.  
 

if you don’t understand the concept of getting a graded card/authenticated card back in the mail that isn’t encapsulated… I can’t help you man.
 

These aren’t pikachus these are worth thousands of dollars even in a damaged state.  If you don’t know anything about Magic that’s cool.  They apparently don’t either


 

 

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I'm somewhat sympathetic to the OP here. CGC is willing to produce a label (albeit an AC label without a numeric grade) for these cards, but apparently not to encapsulate them with that label. For the comics folks, this is something like if NG books (coverless, for example) shipped back in a Mylar with the label inside instead of actually being slabbed.

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I’ll be happy to post the PSA slab pictures when I receive them in the mail.  This is a common practice in the industry.  CGC is the exception.  Becket and SGC do this as well.  One of the customer service people told me to keep the labels because they are considering offering the service at a later time, perhaps even later this year… 

 

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On 9/29/2021 at 7:20 PM, Qalyar said:

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the OP here. CGC is willing to produce a label (albeit an AC label without a numeric grade) for these cards, but apparently not to encapsulate them with that label. For the comics folks, this is something like if NG books (coverless, for example) shipped back in a Mylar with the label inside instead of actually being slabbed.

Yes…‘I don’t get what people don’t get… I don’t want them graded.  
 

the graders did a fine job.  I got the correct slips.  They just need to encapsulate what they did so that it’s secure and I can prove that the work was done.  
 

I am not suggesting anyone should be dishonest… what would prevent someone from making a dummy proxy and putting their slip in it??? Nobody will buy these cards like this.  The whole point of having this done is for a secure opinion.  
 

just put exactly what they did in plastic.  I have no dispute with their opinion on the card.  

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On 9/29/2021 at 7:04 PM, PokemanDude90 said:

After reading about this on here and on the other thread I still have no idea what we are talking about.

Are people trimming Magic cards and then subsequently getting mad when CGC isn’t grading them? What is going on lmao

The card pictures sold for 12,000 dollars.  Do you understand now?  Altered cards that are rare in Magic are some of the most valuable cards in collecting.  
 

There is real value in have a card authenticated and encapsulated/ NOT graded

C3982884-1E46-472B-991A-5A57A20155FD.jpeg

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I can definitely understand the frustration of them not encapsulating the card, but to be frustrated with others here who sympathize with your plight or are trying to understand are not the problem. Nor should they bear it. 

Next I would not compare the value of an altered Beta Black Lotus to a altered International Collector's Edition Black Lotus  even if both are valuable they are not on the same level. 

That said I do agree that it is concerning that they would go through the process of printing a label and not encapsulating it. This should be clearly defined on their site when submitting and if not then they should either offer to encapsulate them at no added charge or refund as this is not ok. 

I agree with @Qalyar in comics this would be like a NG or a Resto coming back with the label, but not in a case. 

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On 9/30/2021 at 1:35 AM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

I can definitely understand the frustration of them not encapsulating the card, but to be frustrated with others here who sympathize with your plight or are trying to understand are not the problem. Nor should they bear it. 

Next I would not compare the value of an altered Beta Black Lotus to a altered International Collector's Edition Black Lotus  even if both are valuable they are not on the same level. 

That said I do agree that it is concerning that they would go through the process of printing a label and not encapsulating it. This should be clearly defined on their site when submitting and if not then they should either offer to encapsulate them at no added charge or refund as this is not ok. 

I agree with @Qalyar in comics this would be like a NG or a Resto coming back with the label, but not in a case. 

I agree with this. I have some items encapsulated, through other services, that even in an "Authentic" no grade state are still worth decent money due to rarity alone. It defeats the purpose of having the label when it isn't encapsulated. A potential buyer is going to look at it through the lens of " I don't know for certain that this label goes to that item".

While we don't know every detail of the scenario, I definitely see where he's coming from. It's more of a liability sending him an unencapsulated label than it would be to have slabbed them in my opinion. As he said, what's to stop someone from selling that label with a fraudulent card with the sole purpose of scamming someone. Maybe not a liability for the company in a legal sense, but for whatever poor person might be buying an item like that.

Edited by Yeahiwasder4dat
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Something to point out. The labels don't say authentic they just say altered card. Its possible they saw it as altered and couldn't authenticate it or for whatever reason didn't think it was authentic. Either way, this isn't the service you're looking for and should go somewhere that does what you're looking for. Its obvious there was some miscommunication or misrepresentation of what happened and for a company that grades stolen cards and labels them as "inadvertent early release" I don't see why they didn't just slab it. 

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On 9/30/2021 at 9:35 AM, Kusig said:

Something to point out. The labels don't say authentic they just say altered card. Its possible they saw it as altered and couldn't authenticate it or for whatever reason didn't think it was authentic. Either way, this isn't the service you're looking for and should go somewhere that does what you're looking for. Its obvious there was some miscommunication or misrepresentation of what happened and for a company that grades stolen cards and labels them as "inadvertent early release" I don't see why they didn't just slab it. 

This was also an issue that I had that took over a week at customer support to get an answer to.  Did they do anything at all?

what I received in the box was what you see in the picture plus a small checklist grader sheet with a checklist on it that was checked “ac”… nothing else.  The lotus was a separate order and was sandwiched between two pieces of foam but did not have a honeycomb and was rolling around like a rattle in the box.

afrer several emails and talking to several customer support reps who had no idea… I finally did receive a verbal answer.  Still waiting on an answer to my original emails… not holding my breath. 
 

Essentially if it gets a slip then it is authenticated.  

This is why they are able to charge me.  If you call CGC right now and ask for just an authentication, no grading, of an alteration.  They will agree to do that.  

This IS the service they provide.  They say that you got what you paid for… a graders opinion… which is actually not true at all and probably important for a grading  agency to understand.

People don’t submit to a grading company for an opinion… they do so for a Secure, official, opinion.  That is the purpose of 3rd part grading.

If I can’t prove the work was done…it is worthless.

they seem to be under the impression that I was disappointed that the cards were not graded… that is NOT the case.  I knew that the cards were not gradable before I submitted them because I called and asked.  I used the service for authentication.  
 

in high end magic cards, these are big money items.  Apparently CGC doesn’t want to be in that market.  That’s cool… but people should probably know that… if you call them they will claim they offer an authentication service.  
 

if you have expensive alters, judge for yourself whether you think this is a valid service.  
 

this is really about education of other people so they don’t get sucked into what I did.  These will get slabbed… just with another company.  I have several in my collection and I have the Lotus sitting a PSA right now.  I thought I would give CGC a try.  
 

for anyone interested… that’s what happened to me

 

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On 9/29/2021 at 4:57 PM, Drew99 said:

The card pictures sold for 12,000 dollars.  Do you understand now?  Altered cards that are rare in Magic are some of the most valuable cards in collecting.  
 

There is real value in have a card authenticated and encapsulated/ NOT graded

C3982884-1E46-472B-991A-5A57A20155FD.jpeg

Is there even a price difference in clipped ce raw and clipped ce in a case?  Some people do collect ce and ie, but as far as I'm aware people buying clipped are buying them to play with, and ce hasn't had counterfeits yet.  

Edited by waaaghboss
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CGC does authenticate cards, cause they wouldn't encapsulate a fake card.  But I don't believe CGC encapsulates cards where the dimensions are altered, or for the most part "hand cut" cards.   I believe that as a matter of standards, CGC does NOT slab anything that has been trimmed or altered dimension wise.  What you are asking for is a "grade" of Authentic Altered, but that is not a grade that CGC offers.  Yes, other companies do, but just because they do doesn't mean CGC automatically does.   When you called in, were you VERY specific that you were going to submit altered/mutilated (jk) cards?   When you made your submission, did you put somewhere that you wanted them graded as Authentic altered?   CGC could NOT just encapsulate them as Authentic because that would not imply that they were altered, rather that would imply that they were legit as issued cards, and again, they don't offer an altered authentic designation.

As far as the grader is concerned, he was given cards to grade and during grading "discovered" that they were altered, thus you got back the cards with altered flips in card savers as they were not eligible for encapsulation, just like when PSA sends cards back as min size or not authentic. The grader took time to look and investigate/grade your cards, thus you got to pay the man!!  Unfortunately you expected a service that CGC just does not offer and doesn't say on the website that they do.  (Again, I don't know how specific you were with CGC on the phone, but in reality this is something that should have been done over email so there was a track record for recourse, if warranted...)

 

Edited by Rufuss C. Kingston
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On 10/2/2021 at 3:51 AM, Rufuss C. Kingston said:

CGC does authenticate cards, cause they wouldn't encapsulate a fake card.  But I don't believe CGC encapsulates cards where the dimensions are altered, or for the most part "hand cut" cards.   I believe that as a matter of standards, CGC does NOT slab anything that has been trimmed or altered dimension wise.  What you are asking for is a "grade" of Authentic Altered, but that is not a grade that CGC offers.  Yes, other companies do, but just because they do doesn't mean CGC automatically does.   When you called in, were you VERY specific that you were going to submit altered/mutilated (jk) cards?   When you made your submission, did you put somewhere that you wanted them graded as Authentic altered?   CGC could NOT just encapsulate them as Authentic because that would not imply that they were altered, rather that would imply that they were legit as issued cards, and again, they don't offer an altered authentic designation.

As far as the grader is concerned, he was given cards to grade and during grading "discovered" that they were altered, thus you got back the cards with altered flips in card savers as they were not eligible for encapsulation, just like when PSA sends cards back as min size or not authentic. The grader took time to look and investigate/grade your cards, thus you got to pay the man!!  Unfortunately you expected a service that CGC just does not offer and doesn't say on the website that they do.  (Again, I don't know how specific you were with CGC on the phone, but in reality this is something that should have been done over email so there was a track record for recourse, if warranted...)

 

Some had a green label Venusaur on here. He was probably expecting something like that. Let me see if I can find it.

On 6/25/2021 at 4:38 PM, Iceman399 said:

We got a batch back last week.  Variety of mainly WOTC with some newer mixed in that the wife couldn't resist opening.

cgc pokemon.jpg

Bottom right. Only green label I've seen. I'm not a comic person, but isn't that equivalent of altered? I wasn't aware that it was specifically limited to size like trimming. He was probably expecting something like that.

@onlyweaknesskryptonite know you're a comic dude. What is the green?

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