SUPERMAN #1 7.0 Blue THIRD highest graded copy coming to auction at CC 4 4

[Aman619]

On 10/19/2021 at 7:48 PM, N e r V said:

A lot of people (myself included) were fine if restoration were done to improve a book overall and what was done was disclosed. What happened was it got out of control with many people (largely dealers and shady collectors) using it as a tool to expand their pocketbooks. CGC came late in the game but I will say they’ve helped (not stopped) the practice. A lot of books sadly would benefit from restoration but the hobby as it has done so many times got greedy. There’s something about collecting fields that brings out a lot of nastiness in human beings. I’m sad that the fate of legit restoration ended due to many $&@%*! in the hobby with their greed. I lived through all the changes in perceptions towards restoration and am still hopeful it can find its proper place in the hobby with a little self control towards what you do and why it should be done…

I just speak from where we are now.  The fact that our hobby has become ever more a chase for riches by any means possible is regrettable, but basically human nature. Left to their own devices 98 out of 100 of us will take the edge, the shortcut, especially when if you dont, you haven't even put a dent in the problem, as others will swoop in and take advantage of you.  and human nastiness isn't limited to collecting fields... it shows up in everything we do. Its a Darwinian, a dog eat dog, zero sum game... and we wonder why we all cant just get along.

At this point I react to the kind of hypocrisy espoused here by "true collectors" etc etc.  Its fine while you're amassing your collection, to just love collecting for pure joy, we have all been there!  ...but when you get ready to sell, lets see how much $$ you are happy to leave at the table and into someone else pockets.

But I agree that restoration - while not for everybody - is fine for many people and many books. and the professional work gets tainted with the hucksters greed and non disclosure.

[N e r V]

I think the collecting field often has a emotional greed within it. I know of story after story of the many ways “fans” have helped themselves with stolen art from artists or dealers stealing from other dealers at shows or fans helping themselves to a sellers merchandise and on and on. These types probably wouldn’t try breaking into someone’s house under normal circumstances but if there happens to be Brundage original art in the house all logic goes out the window. So yeah, I do think collecting can have it’s unusual type of thief or con artists. My point with resto. work is it should have been a respected part of collecting when it’s needed but it’s been damned as undesirable by its abuse. That’s all…

[N e r V]

FYI, I’m burying all my keys in the jungle and providing a public map to the boards here (they’ll be buried under a big W).

Lets see how many of you can survive the journey thru cannibals, leeches, crocs, shark infested waters, quick sand, head hunters, lions, tigers and bears…

I might even throw in a few special traps just to make it interesting…lol

[Aman619]

Bring It On!

[Jayman]

On 10/19/2021 at 10:53 PM, N e r V said:

FYI, I’m burying all my keys in the jungle and providing a public map to the boards here (they’ll be buried under a big W).

If I only knew where that W was!!!

[N e r V]

On 10/19/2021 at 8:33 PM, Jayman said:

If I only knew where that W was!!!

I think I see Bedrock in that motley crew…

[RareHighGrade]

On 10/19/2021 at 2:05 PM, Mmehdy said:

" how many TCBC holdouts do you think are left?"  answer:..since a lot of those old time collectors seem to not be so vocal on like our boards, I would say a few...but what  they have is significant in terms of a GA/SA collection in 2021...some of them impossible to amass today unless you have "impossible collection" money available. Their collections will make GA/SA comic book waves.

"All of you will do the "thing" when you sell" I am assuming you mean pancake, clean  and flip and CGC it.

"why keep harping on it as the evil it was called 2 decades ago" and " are you capitulating to realty". I would correct that to say 4/5 decades to go. Because at the time, early on the  restorers sold their services forgetting to mention that at some point their restoration would be recognizable, and actually decrease value of  the  GA comic book substantially . The restoration was sold that you could not tell  the difference between any book fixed up and not and that it would help preserve the book in the best possible condition in the long run. Hence a lot GA collectors early on, who were not flipping but wanting to PROTECT their  GA book for generations to come. In other words, as it played out most of the early restoration was for long term collectors wanting to preserve their GA treasures, yes some dealers used them to help turn a profit for a quick flip did not disclose the restoration. It just was not right at the time it was sold and how it was sold and did not turn out right after CGC was formed and we as GA collectors in 2021 still feel the effects of those early years. Today, this undisclosed permissible restoration or whatever you call it has turned into a game of stacking new permissible fix after new permissible fix to get the highest possible grade number . They do not care about the GA book itself and what is done it or what it has to go thru in order to get that higher number and the brass ring on the merry-go-round. It is turning GA comic book collecting  into a  numbers game, not even caring about the GA book. This is madness period. At some point hopefully, our younger collectors will overcome this "numbers game" and go back to real comic book collecting. I care, I hope, I pray we return to collector sanity.

 

 

One of the interesting insights that is buried in this lengthy post is the evolution of CGC.  What started out as a company that was used primarily to spot undisclosed restoration has morphed into a company that is now used primarily to increase the grades (and related values) of unrestored books.  It does this by advocating and being part of a process that involves various physical manipulations, many of which would not have increased a book's value before CGC.

[Bunky Brian]

On 10/19/2021 at 2:05 PM, Mmehdy said:

" how many TCBC holdouts do you think are left?"  answer:..since a lot of those old time collectors seem to not be so vocal on like our boards, I would say a few...but what  they have is significant in terms of a GA/SA collection in 2021...some of them impossible to amass today unless you have "impossible collection" money available. Their collections will make GA/SA comic book waves.

"All of you will do the "thing" when you sell" I am assuming you mean pancake, clean  and flip and CGC it.

"why keep harping on it as the evil it was called 2 decades ago" and " are you capitulating to realty". I would correct that to say 4/5 decades to go. Because at the time, early on the  restorers sold their services forgetting to mention that at some point their restoration would be recognizable, and actually decrease value of  the  GA comic book substantially . The restoration was sold that you could not tell  the difference between any book fixed up and not and that it would help preserve the book in the best possible condition in the long run. Hence a lot GA collectors early on, who were not flipping but wanting to PROTECT their  GA book for generations to come. In other words, as it played out most of the early restoration was for long term collectors wanting to preserve their GA treasures, yes some dealers used them to help turn a profit for a quick flip did not disclose the restoration. It just was not right at the time it was sold and how it was sold and did not turn out right after CGC was formed and we as GA collectors in 2021 still feel the effects of those early years. Today, this undisclosed permissible restoration or whatever you call it has turned into a game of stacking new permissible fix after new permissible fix to get the highest possible grade number . They do not care about the GA book itself and what is done it or what it has to go thru in order to get that higher number and the brass ring on the merry-go-round. It is turning GA comic book collecting  into a  numbers game, not even caring about the GA book. This is madness period. At some point hopefully, our younger collectors will overcome this "numbers game" and go back to real comic book collecting. I care, I hope, I pray we return to collector sanity.

 

 

Nice thoughts my friend, but that ship has sailed and never to come back, with the prices we all pay now, the simple times of buying and holding and loving old funny  books is a thing of the past, yet we can still enjoy them, for whatever that emotion is, to each of us, regardless of the sky high prices,  

[Bunky Brian]

On 10/19/2021 at 9:56 PM, RareHighGrade said:

One of the interesting insights that is buried in this lengthy post is the evolution of CGC.  What started out as a company that was used primarily to spot undisclosed restoration has morphed into a company that is now used primarily to increase the grades (and related values) of unrestored books.  It does this by advocating and being part of a process that involves various physical manipulations, many of which would not have increased a book's value before CGC.

Well said, as if a high priced big shot lawyer type came up with that very detail point , Kudos

[lou_fine]

On 10/19/2021 at 2:05 PM, Mmehdy said:

Because at the time, early on the  restorers sold their services forgetting to mention that at some point their restoration would be recognizable, and actually decrease value of  the  GA comic book substantially .

I remember collecting back then and reading through the Overstreet Price Guides at the time and restoration was seen not only as something that would improve the condition and make the book look more presentable, but also something that would add value to the unrestored original copy of the book.  In fact, didn't they also try to quantitfied this in some fashion with graphs and formulas whereby a restored book would be valued more highly than the original unrestored book, but also less than what the book would be worth in its improved condition if it was unrestored.  

So, I guess the more things change, the more they actually stay the same and even decades later, we haven't learned from our past mistakes and continue to repeat them by spinning it as something positive like "maximization of potential".  No surprise that we even use the same argument in that nobody can tell the difference between a pressed book from an unpressed book with 100% accuracy if the work had been done properly.  This then makes me wonder what would happen going forward if improved technology makes it cost efficient and simple to tell the difference between an unpressed book and one that has been artifically pressed.  

 

[N e r V]

On 10/19/2021 at 11:59 PM, lou_fine said:

I remember collecting back then and reading through the Overstreet Price Guides at the time and restoration was seen not only as something that would improve the condition and make the book look more presentable, but also something that would add value to the unrestored original copy of the book.  In fact, didn't they also try to quantitfied this in some fashion with graphs and formulas whereby a restored book would be valued more highly than the original unrestored book, but also less than what the book would be worth in its improved condition if it was unrestored.  

So, I guess the more things change, the more they actually stay the same and even decades later, we haven't learned from our past mistakes and continue to repeat them by spinning it as something positive like "maximization of potential".  No surprise that we even use the same argument in that nobody can tell the difference between a pressed book from an unpressed book with 100% accuracy if the work had been done properly.  This then makes me wonder what would happen going forward if improved technology makes it cost efficient and simple to tell the difference between an unpressed book and one that has been artifically pressed.  

 

If it happened at this moment you’d probably have the people that don’t like pressing not buy a book assuming CGC decided to note pressing on a label. To the others who are fine with nothing being added to a book like color touch or repairs or paper added they would continue to see pressing in the same manner. In my experience most collectors right now are ok or don’t care that much about pressing. If the outcry was large the industry would have changed by now. You would also have to assume that any technology that would detect pressing would also probably drop any book into that slot that’s been on a stack for any length of time since technically that book is getting pressed too. 
 

It’s a dead horse but again the comic collectors view on restoration is very different than in most fields of collecting. But it wasn’t always that way as I said and it came to that due to the abuse of the practice. In all fields it’s most desirable to have something in perfect unrestored condition but it doesn’t damn something either that’s restored in good faith. There’s a lot of anger coming from the idea someone was or is trying to intentionally deceive you. How many boardies are happy when a seller sells them a book with slight color touch they missed before buying the book and it was never mentioned? How would that same boardie feel if the seller was straight up and told them ahead of time what to expect? Even now  a lot of sellers are honest enough to tell you a books either been pressed or at least say they aren’t aware if it has and as noted right now that’s mostly an undetectable practice. The collectors viewpoint has and is being influenced by the conduct of others towards things like pressing and restoration hence any changes before, now or in the future…

[N e r V]

On 10/19/2021 at 11:06 PM, Bunky Brian said:

Nice thoughts my friend, but that ship has sailed and never to come back, with the prices we all pay now, the simple times of buying and holding and loving old funny  books is a thing of the past, yet we can still enjoy them, for whatever that emotion is, to each of us, regardless of the sky high prices,  

I’m going to agree with that. I have books that can easily buy a car, down payment on a home or more. I didn’t pay those high prices now and it’s certainly made me more paranoid when handling them but the original love is still there for why I bought them with investment being a distant part at the time. Since the 1970’s everyone getting into the hobby was aware of the investment aspect of it. Some of you became dealers because of it. It probably wasn’t the hook that got you there though. Today is different though because the money has become much bigger and the hobby is far, far more respected as a legit investment field. But values have gone up in a lot of other things too. If I bought my home for $500,000.00 and it’s worth 3.5 million today does it change my living experience in it? With ships sailing it wasn’t until recently the Bronze Age books were pretty cheap other than a few and now that ship it seems is starting to sail for some. What’s after that? Modern? Those damn ships keep sailing as time marches on…

[Mmehdy]

On 10/19/2021 at 11:59 PM, lou_fine said:

I remember collecting back then and reading through the Overstreet Price Guides at the time and restoration was seen not only as something that would improve the condition and make the book look more presentable, but also something that would add value to the unrestored original copy of the book.  In fact, didn't they also try to quantitfied this in some fashion with graphs and formulas whereby a restored book would be valued more highly than the original unrestored book, but also less than what the book would be worth in its improved condition if it was unrestored.  

So, I guess the more things change, the more they actually stay the same and even decades later, we haven't learned from our past mistakes and continue to repeat them by spinning it as something positive like "maximization of potential".  No surprise that we even use the same argument in that nobody can tell the difference between a pressed book from an unpressed book with 100% accuracy if the work had been done properly.  This then makes me wonder what would happen going forward if improved technology makes it cost efficient and simple to tell the difference between an unpressed book and one that has been artifically pressed.  

 

your right Lou....originally it was also sold as a value added plus  but also as a value preserver, especially on brittle books and tears which could get worse over time. The problem was that the quality of work, especially on the early days, a bunch of hacks tried to come in and do it cheaper and it worked out that the quality of the restoration varied greatly. That is probability one factor in creating restoration's bad name over time.

[Mmehdy]

On 10/19/2021 at 11:06 PM, Bunky Brian said:

Nice thoughts my friend, but that ship has sailed and never to come back, with the prices we all pay now, the simple times of buying and holding and loving old funny  books is a thing of the past, yet we can still enjoy them, for whatever that emotion is, to each of us, regardless of the sky high prices,  

Never say never, but the forms of collecting enjoyment has changed over time, lets take the Cap 1-12 omnibus...that is pure GOLD, and yes for under $100 you  can relive it  like a time machine. however, holding the original Cap#3 is just plain different, feeling it, knowing it was on the newsstand in 1941 and someone bought it. It like a feeling, its history, I just hope and pray that feeling never goes away for any of us.

[adamstrange]

On 10/20/2021 at 12:56 AM, RareHighGrade said:

One of the interesting insights that is buried in this lengthy post is the evolution of CGC.  What started out as a company that was used primarily to spot undisclosed restoration has morphed into a company that is now used primarily to increase the grades (and related values) of unrestored books.  It does this by advocating and being part of a process that involves various physical manipulations, many of which would not have increased a book's value before CGC.

That's not correct. 

They are also trying to increase the value of restored books by de-restoring.

[rob_react]

On 10/20/2021 at 11:40 AM, N e r V said:

What’s after that? Modern? Those damn ships keep sailing as time marches on…

[N e r V]

On 10/21/2021 at 10:26 AM, rob_react said:

If the boards are still here we can revisit things when Spiderman #252, New Mutants #98, Thor #337, Batman adventures #12, etc. will be bargains at 5k. Lol

I still remember people fighting me over $30.00 prices for Hulk #181 at shows…

[jimjum12]

The Train has left the station .... 

GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

 

[Jayman]

On 10/21/2021 at 4:33 PM, jimjum12 said:

The Train has left the station .... 

 

[Aman619]

Hold on Buster!