Question about rust and how much it effects the grades of high grade comics? 1 1

[billbrown7080]

I was  hoping some of you could tell how much rust on staples effects comics that are in the high grade range.?

I've read about 1/2 a dozen grading scales.. I can only find mentioning of rust on staples on grades 4.0 or lower, so I'm assuming that means rust on staples Knocks pretty much any comic down to a 4.0.

 

I'm basically just wanting to know if that is correct and  if a comic is otherwise like a 8.0 or 8.5,  if it has rust on a staple doesn't  automatically knock it down to the 4.0 range

 

 thank you

[Topnotchman]

To many variables, rust starts small as discoloration and eventually can take over and can turn to dust and break. feel free to display a picture of the book for an estimated grade.   

[buttock]

On 10/28/2021 at 2:51 PM, billbrown7080 said:

I was  hoping some of you could tell how much rust on staples effects comics that are in the high grade range.?

I've read about 1/2 a dozen grading scales.. I can only find mentioning of rust on staples on grades 4.0 or lower, so I'm assuming that means rust on staples Knocks pretty much any comic down to a 4.0.

 

I'm basically just wanting to know if that is correct and  if a comic is otherwise like a 8.0 or 8.5,  if it has rust on a staple doesn't  automatically knock it down to the 4.0 range

 

 thank you

It really depends on the amount of rust.  CGC has been quite lax on rust lately, up to 9.2.  

[billbrown7080]

On 10/28/2021 at 7:30 PM, Topnotchman said:

To many variables, rust starts small as discoloration and eventually can take over and can turn to dust and break. feel free to display a picture of the book for an estimated grade.   

Here's the book that made me ask this question, overall in my opinion this book is around the 7.0 to 7.5 excluding the rust on the staple.

but on the bottom staple about 1/4 of the  staple has slight rust on it and it looks like there's a little bit of rust migration as well.

I just don't know how to grade this book, I don't know how much the rust affects the overall grade or if it really drops it all the way down to a 4.0

 

any advice would be great

[Topnotchman]

That is minor enough it would not affect the grade on a mid grade copy. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

Rust at that stage would top out at 7.0 for me.

[Randall Dowling]

On 10/29/2021 at 7:24 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Rust at that stage would top out at 7.0 for me.

I agree.  But if the book is otherwise a 7.0-7.5, then I would drop further for rusty staples on top of other flaws.  Personally, one full grade so final grade is 6.0-6.5 (assuming otherwise 7.0-7.5)

Rusty staples are bad.    

[marvelmaniac]

According to the grading standards...

"Staples may show some discoloration." VF 8.0 - NM- 9.2

"Staples may show some discoloration, Slight rust migration." FN/VF 7.0

"Staples may show minor discoloration, minor rust migration." VG/FN 5.0 - FN 6.0

https://comics.ha.com/tutorial/comics-grading.s?show=comicdefinitions

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

There’s been conjecture in the CC thread about what, if any, effect  the rusty staple on this book will have on price

Edited October 29, 2021 by GreatCaesarsGhost

[Qalyar]

Personally, I've always wanted to see rust hammered down even more than it is in terms of grade. Even more so than (most kinds of) paper degradation, rusting is an autocatalytic process. That is, the presence of rust will cause the remaining metal to rust more readily...

[billbrown7080]

On 10/29/2021 at 9:50 AM, Randall Dowling said:

I agree.  But if the book is otherwise a 7.0-7.5, then I would drop further for rusty staples on top of other flaws.  Personally, one full grade so final grade is 6.0-6.5 (assuming otherwise 7.0-7.5)

Rusty staples are bad.    

Thank you so much for your advice and opinions it really helped a lot

I do have one more question,  hypothetically imagine this same book in the same condition but the staple is completely rusted , how much would a completely rusted staple effect the grade of a comic like this

thank you

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 10/29/2021 at 11:33 AM, Qalyar said:

Personally, I've always wanted to see rust hammered down even more than it is in terms of grade. Even more so than (most kinds of) paper degradation, rusting is an autocatalytic process. That is, the presence of rust will cause the remaining metal to rust more readily...

Cgc will tell you the spread of foxing stops upon encapsulation. I don’t think the same can be said for rust. Does anyone here know?

[Randall Dowling]

On 10/29/2021 at 11:39 AM, billbrown7080 said:

Thank you so much for your advice and opinions it really helped a lot

I do have one more question,  hypothetically imagine this same book in the same condition but the staple is completely rusted , how much would a completely rusted staple effect the grade of a comic like this

thank you

If it's completely rusted with migration/staining on the paper around, I think you're looking at a 4.0-4.5.  

But others will feel differently.  I just particularly dislike staple rust.  It's the bane of many, many stitched periodicals.

[Randall Dowling]

On 10/29/2021 at 12:01 PM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Cgc will tell you the spread of foxing stops upon encapsulation. I don’t think the same can be said for rust. Does anyone here know?

As you know, they're not waterproof or air tight.  I think whoever said that made it up.

And no, slabs do not stop staple rust.  In fact if slabs are stored in the wrong conditions, they'll accelerate it.  Many years ago, CGC put out a warning for storing slabs in fireproof safes because a very high grade Hulk 181 had been stored in one and the staples disintegrated.

I've said it before but I'll repeat it again- slabs are not archival for long term storage.  

[LowGradeBronze]

I think that rust only continues to be active if given moisture to fuel its progress. Need to see the comic open at the centrefold to know how it has affected the paper. Keep it in a low humidity environment and it may progress no further. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by LowGradeBronze

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 10/29/2021 at 12:09 PM, Randall Dowling said:

As you know, they're not waterproof or air tight.  I think whoever said that made it up.

And no, slabs do not stop staple rust.  In fact if slabs are stored in the wrong conditions, they'll accelerate it.  Many years ago, CGC put out a warning for storing slabs in fireproof safes because a very high grade Hulk 181 had been stored in one and the staples disintegrated.

I've said it before but I'll repeat it again- slabs are not archival for long term storage.  

I hear you, but here is a copy of an email response I got a couple years back on whether or not the holders stop the spread of foxing. They say it does stop it. And in fact, the foxing doesn’t appear to have advanced in the years I’ve had the book

[Randall Dowling]

On 10/29/2021 at 12:41 PM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

I hear you, but here is a copy of an email response I got a couple years back on whether or not the holders stop the spread of foxing. They say it does stop it. And in fact, the foxing doesn’t appear to have advanced in the years I’ve had the book

  I hope they're right.  Unfortunately, the last few years they've been making claims contrary to known preservation techniques.  

I blame sales and marketing.

It's an easy claim to make especially since they don't have to back it up.  It's not as if  they will pay for the book if something happens to it.  And, the causes and conditions that lead to foxing are still poorly understood.  So I think the claim is dubious.

The best bet is to store the slab in a supportive atmosphere (cool, dry, etc.) and it should (hopefully) be okay.  

[Qalyar]

Foxing is... complicated. Also, not all foxing has the same causes or chemistry.

As far as rust goes, iron does require the presence of water to rust. However, the air contains moisture unless it's at 0% humidity (which is even worse for preservation). Now, an unrusted staple resists corrosion at normal atmospheric levels of moisture pretty well; that's why most staples aren't rusty. However, once rust has started, there's a problem. Although in principle rust is just iron oxide, in reality, rust contains a variety of partially-hydrated iron oxide compounds. Over time, a desiccation reaction can occur which frees the water from those hydrated complexes... which makes it available to react with the nearby unoxidized metal. In addition, the way that iron in particular corrodes tends to make adjacent "good" metal more vulnerable than it would otherwise be. Rust is bad stuff.

In any case, neither foxing nor rust is going to worsen because of encapsulation. What matters more than anything are the storage conditions, and that's true for raw books just as much as it is for slabs.

[Tony S]

A lot of people think in terms of, ask their question on grading as "how much does xxx defect affect the grade?".  A lot of people answer the question with "xxx grade drop"

A better way to think of grading with specific defects is "what is the best grade a book with this defect could get?" Because most defects work more that way.  There is a top grade xxx defect would be allowed in. 

I recently sent in two copies of ASM 194 that were virtually identical. Bought at a comic book store and put away for 40+ years. One copy got 9.4. I missed a tiny bit of rust on bottom staple of the other copy. Looks pretty much like yours. A bit of rust and it did stain the paper just a wee bit. That book got 8.0. So it appears rust that stains paper even just a little limits a book at CGC to 8.0. 

LIMITS a book to 8.0. NOT a four grade reduction. Because if it was a four grade reduction, an otherwise 2.0 copy with staple rust would grade -0- 

[James J Johnson]

On 10/29/2021 at 5:24 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Rust at that stage would top out at 7.0 for me.

Yes. Because it migrated into the surrounding paper.