Hulk 180 or 181 1st app by the co creator
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113 posts in this topic

On 11/3/2021 at 10:23 AM, jimjum12 said:

... no bearing on the definition of cameo.

.... no bearing on the definition of cameo.

These are both examples of you attempting to interject your "feelings" into a discussion as fact by spinning data as relevant. I'll stand behind you every time when you're right, this isn't one of those times. It's hard to turn "wrong" around once it leaves the station. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

Okay well how about this and I play your semantic game with you for a moment.   

Nowhere in that dictionary definition is the term "cameo" isolated to the "distinguished" person being "distinguished" AT THE TIME THEY MAKE THE  APPEARANCE only.

i.e., there is nothing that says that a person who later becomes "distinguished" cannot have an earlier, non-substantive one frame appearance be called a "cameo" in the earlier role.  

As such, Wolverine, as a "distinguished" character, has a non-substantive one panel CAMEO at the end of 180. (thumbsu

-J.

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On 11/3/2021 at 1:32 PM, Jaydogrules said:

Okay well how about this and I play your semantic game with you for a moment.   

Nowhere in that dictionary definition is the term "cameo" isolated to the "distinguished" person being "distinguished" AT THE TIME THEY MAKE THE  APPEARANCE only.

i.e., there is nothing that says that a person who later becomes "distinguished" cannot have an earlier, non-substantive one frame appearance be called a "cameo" in the earlier role.  

As such, Wolverine, as a "distinguished" character, has a non-substantive one panel CAMEO at the end of 180. (thumbsu

-J.

The dictionary doesn't say that water cannot also be called dirt either. 

Hey, if you want to run down Main Street wearing no pants, that's your business. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

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On 11/3/2021 at 10:46 AM, jimjum12 said:

The dictionary doesn't say that water cannot also be called dirt either. 

Hey, if you want to run down Main Street wearing no pants, that's your business. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

Straw man.  

At this point you are simply disagreeing with what someone's interpretation of the definition of "cameo".  And I certainly  disagree  with yours because you are , quite wrongly, reading waaaaaay more into it than what is actually there.  Is Wolverine "distinguished"?  Yes.  Was it a small , non-substantive one panel teaser appearance at the end of 180?  Yes.  Definition -  Cameo.  

Which brings us full circle to 181 still being the BY FAR most important, more valuable, and more sought after book, for reasons so obvious and well known they do not even require being mentioned or debated in the first place at all.

Funny how that is.  

-J.

Edited by Jaydogrules
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On 11/3/2021 at 1:56 PM, Jaydogrules said:

Straw man.  

At this point point you are simply disagreeing with what someone's definition of "cameo" is.  Ixeriantlt degree with tours because you are , quite wrongly, reading waaaaaay more into it than what is actually there.  Is Wolverine "distinguished"?  Yes.  Was it a small , non-substantive one panel teaser appearance at the end of 180?  Yes.  Definition -  Cameo.  

Which brings us full circle to 181 still being the BY FAR most important, more valuable, and more sought after book, for reasons so obvious and well known they do not even require being mentioned or debated in the first place at all.

Funny how that is.  

-J.

That doesn't matter. Hulk 181 is the second part of a story that spans 3 issues. No amount of intellectual acrobatics will change that. Any significance placed on one part over the other has nothing to do with continuity. Sorry. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

HULK 180 has skyrocketed in value since light was shed on this fallacy that you still insist on embracing. :foryou:

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I'd encourage doing away with the term "cameo" when "first appearance" will do nicely.  The fact that Wolverine's unquestioned "first appearance" was in Incredible Hulk #180 hardly makes that more valuable than the full story featuring Wolverine in Incredible Hulk #181, any more than Kevin Bacon's "first appearance" in "The Guiding Light" makes that a more "valuable" property than "Animal House."  

The main problem with this discussion/argument is that it's already been decided by the market.  For whatever reason, the market doesn't value the brief "first appearance" of Wolverine in IH #180 as much as the full story in IH #181.  We'll just have to learn to live with it.

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On 11/3/2021 at 11:01 AM, jimjum12 said:

That doesn't matter. Hulk 181 is the second part of a story that spans 3 issues. No amount of intellectual acrobatics will change that. Any significance placed on one part over the other has nothing to do with continuity. Sorry. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

HULK 180 has skyrocketed in value since light was shed on this fallacy that you still insist on embracing. :foryou:

181 skyrocketed.  180 has always drafted off of that.  

Oh and 180 still sells for about the same 75% discount to 181 as it always has in most grades.  😉

-J.

Edited by Jaydogrules
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On 11/3/2021 at 2:08 PM, Jaydogrules said:

181 skyrocketed.  180 has always drafted off of that.  

Oh and 180 still sells for about the same 25% discount to 181 as it always has in most grades.  😉

-J.

You keep returning to the "value" factor. That isn't the point. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

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On 11/3/2021 at 11:10 AM, jimjum12 said:

You keep returning to the "value" factor. That isn't the point. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

Lol if value wasn't the point, these conversations would never happen.  You hulk 180 people would just accept you have the less desirable, and as such , less valuable book and leave it at that.  

-J.

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On 11/3/2021 at 11:01 AM, jimjum12 said:

That doesn't matter. Hulk 181 is the second part of a story that spans 3 issues. No amount of intellectual acrobatics will change that. Any significance placed on one part over the other has nothing to do with continuity. Sorry. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

HULK 180 has skyrocketed in value since light was shed on this fallacy that you still insist on embracing. :foryou:

Actually, Hulk 180 has skyrocketed only because I sold the copy I had 

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On 11/3/2021 at 2:13 PM, Jaydogrules said:

Lol if value wasn't the point, these conversations would never happen.  You hulk 180 people would just accept you have the less desirable, and as such , less valuable book and leave it at that.  

-J.

I don't have either, never cared that much for the character.... I just enter these conversations to make sure that some future comics historian, lurking in the wings, doesn't get misled by the voice of avarice. There is more to importance or significance than "monetary value". GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

... maybe YOU are afraid that the truth will cause YOUR investment to lose value ... although at this late date, I doubt it. 

Edited by jimjum12
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ITT: People arguing over a definition without acknowledging that dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive.

The definition of cameo could have meant only one thing, and not be valid to #180 when it was first published, but it has found alternate meaning and usage over the years. When somebody says cameo appearance we know what that means in context to comics.

#180 is the first appearance of Wolverine (cameo appearance).
#181 is the first full appearance and first cover appearance of Wolverine.

...but the market values one more than the other. IT'S EASY! :D

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On 11/2/2021 at 5:52 PM, valiantman said:

The problem with the word "cameo" is that a character/actor has to be known for other things before they can "cameo" in something else.  They can't "cameo" (by definition) if they've never been seen before.

"First brief appearance" is probably the better option, but the debates about what is "brief" would never end.  One panel is brief.  Is two panels?  What if they're on different pages?  What about 5 panels on one page?  What about 3 panels on 3 pages? Etc.

(Disclosure:  I have never owned either issue and will not benefit financially in any case as I will never pay what these books now cost.  This is purely my opinion as a lifelong fan of the MCU.)

I agree completely with this.  The problem is the constant use of the word "cameo" in order to reduce the value of Hulk 180.  It's not an accurate descriptive but rather a diminution by many to create a hierarchy to benefit Hulk 181 disproportionately.  If Hulk 181 is the much more desirable book, then describe them both accurately and let the chips fall where they may.

The constant reference to the final panel of Hulk 180 as "non-substantive" is garbage as well.  It's nearly a splash page with only Wolverine delivering a few lines, promising to change the outcome of the battle.  And there's a couple of descriptive boxes to build suspense for the next issue.  It's not a character in shadow or disguise for one panel.  It's not an oblique reference to someone named Wolverine.  It's a dramatic presentation of the fully formed character, named and promised to be a game changer in the battle at hand.  

I didn't buy this off the stands.  But if I was a kid and read it the day it came out, I would've been filled with anticipation for the next issue to tell me more about this "Wolverine" character.  I wouldn't have thought "There's a cameo of Wolverine on the last page."  I would have thought "The last page has the first appearance of a new character named Wolverine".  I know he's got some kind of crazy claws and he's a brawler and I want to see how this plays out with the Hulk and Wendigo.  And the government refers to him as "Weapon X", a signature part of Wolverine's identity as his origin developed over the next couple decades.  If that's not a first appearance, I don't know what is.  And clearly both creators agreed.  'Nuff said!

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