Time to bar dealers from buying in YouTube claim shows
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42 posts in this topic

I understand how you feel but I don't think it's doable.  There's an intuitive sense of who is a dealer.  And yet all collectors can sell art.

I think part of why you posted is because a lot of the art for sale is "new" inventory.   Or "priced to sell" in some cases.  I could see it being more fair to bargain on inventory that's been sitting around for years.  But offering new inventory and willing to bargain with a smaller audience before it gets shown to the rest of the world might seem less fair to buyers.  But can also lead to the dealer selling for less than their "list" price.  In theory, the buyers and sellers are still benefiting from the show.

Dealers can always decline offers.  They're there to deal.  On Dueling Dealers, not every piece sells.  But I think it's very rare that someone makes an offer at less than "list" price and the show ends with the piece going unsold.

A better solution would be to expand the universe of viewers (and hopefully buyers).  I watch Dueling Dealers on a pretty regular basis (and Dealmakers sometimes).  But I've never tried to claim anything.  I think it's been mentioned here that it seems like the same few people claim art.  Even during the shows, sometimes a piece pops up and there's the expectation that a certain buyer is lurking and should claim the piece, kind of funny.  I think last night's show had a lot of pieces sell to more people, so that's good.  Maybe it's related to that show having a max price of $2,000.

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On 11/11/2021 at 10:28 AM, Race said:


…but when you allow dealers to participate I believe it hurts transparency, undermines trust and impacts sales.

“undermines trust”? Really? Trust dealers to do what? Not try to get the best price they can?

This is a rigged market, at least at the higher end. Dealers buying and then selling the same pieces with a mark-up just makes it glaringly obvious. Those claims shows just boil down to free advertising, and a way to boost prices with extra visibility. 

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On 11/11/2021 at 1:26 PM, wurstisart said:

I have been collecting for 25+ years and to me these shows are pathetic.

Seriously. What normal art collector sits in front of the pc and hits a claim button, simply because the participating dealer tells us it’s such a great piece and this and that. I am beyond turned off by this development.

I used to click for updates on these dealers sites daily, but ignore them now completely.

Please give me a regular website update and whoever buys an item first gets the piece.

Nuff said.

The strange thing is, artwork is late to this party. Almost every hobby I follow has been doing "live claim sale" videos for years. I don't ever participate but they are ubiquitous on YouTube and Facebook groups. I really don't like the model, racing to claim a piece, it's a little too much like standing at an artist's booth at a convention, flipping through their Itoya and having someone reach over your should to grab what you're looking at. 

 

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On 11/11/2021 at 2:41 PM, rrichards said:

I really don't see the problem here . If Mike offers a page on the show, with full transparency and you had a chance to buy it and didn't,then let whoever buys it have it (dealer or not). You didn't want it any way!

Why are you assuming full transparency? Do we know what these folks discuss privately, behind closed doors? Or decide to select for sale?
What I don’t like is the feeling that combinations of dealers manipulate the market to keep prices up, and letting dealers publicly bid, and win, pieces may be part of the game. I don’t take quite the same stand as Vouduo, as I can’t make all the same assumptions, but he may be right.

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I don't know that alienating of other potential buyers matters much to the dealers to be honest. The moment I got really turned off the claim sales was during one of the amateur dueling dealer battles where pretty much every reasonably priced piece was snapped up by a dealer. It really undermined the spirit of the whole thing as far as I was concerned. 

Also, while I doubt any show would care to implement a "no dealers" policy, it's not like it would be impossible. Felix has asked dealers not to buy pieces in his art drops and presumably he's serious about it. 

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On 11/11/2021 at 10:28 AM, Race said:

I've participated in the claim shows for several months now and cannot stand the fact other dealers are there. Rich D showed up last night and worked Burkey down on a piece.. literally in $25 increments on a +$1,000 page... makes me throw up in my mouth when Rich D, at the very same time, is sending you pricing on pages and demanding 4-5x market.

I think these claim shows are positive for price discovery, but when you allow dealers to participate I believe it hurts transparency, undermines trust and impacts sales.

I really think that's misguided.   Their money is as green, they can bid if they want to.    What constitutes a dealer?    How do you differentiate a dealer from a collector who deals on the side?   What about a dealer who collects on the side, what are they?    These nice clean labels don't work.   Most people are a little from column A and a little from column B, and at the end of the day, anyone is free to spend their money as they see fit.

Edited by Bronty
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On 11/11/2021 at 6:54 PM, Rick2you2 said:

Why are you assuming full transparency? Do we know what these folks discuss privately, behind closed doors? Or decide to select for sale?
What I don’t like is the feeling that combinations of dealers manipulate the market to keep prices up, and letting dealers publicly bid, and win, pieces may be part of the game. I don’t take quite the same stand as Vouduo, as I can’t make all the same assumptions, but he may be right.

Dealers should have just as much freedom as collectors.

In a similar vein, I am free to do something else with my time instead of watching claim shows, so I don't watch any.   Problem solved.

Edited by Bronty
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You can't be serious, "what constitutes a dealer?" Perhaps you are confused, but you know who is not? The dealers! I'll leave you the quote from Will Gabriel a few months back, during one of the shows you don't watch:

"The dealers set the prices."

He stated this after some of the viewers made comments about Glen or Bechara asking a ridiculous price for a page. Will was making it very clear who was in charge of the OA market -- dealers like him, Bechara and Glen.

 

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On 11/12/2021 at 4:30 PM, Bronty said:

Dealers should have just as much freedom as collectors.

In a similar vein, I am free to do something else with my time instead of watching claim shows, so I don't watch any.   Problem solved.

No, they should not have that much freedom any more than wholesalers or manufacturers cannot have as much freedom as end-users.  Ever hear of anti-trust law? It prohibits collusion in the market to restrain trade. Dealer sales to dealers which result in market price bumps sounds at least a bit suspicious.

If dealers are engaged in practices to artificially keep prices high, that may be illegal. It is certainly something which deserves at least a spotlight of shame. This is as good as any.

If a dealer says: “we set the prices”, then I will stay away. I don’t play in a high priced sandbox anyway, so I can be satisfied with “lesser” material. 

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On 11/12/2021 at 6:32 PM, Race said:

You can't be serious, "what constitutes a dealer?" Perhaps you are confused, but you know who is not? The dealers! I'll leave you the quote from Will Gabriel a few months back, during one of the shows you don't watch:

"The dealers set the prices."

He stated this after some of the viewers made comments about Glen or Bechara asking a ridiculous price for a page. Will was making it very clear who was in charge of the OA market -- dealers like him, Bechara and Glen.

 

Not that I would recommend it anyway, but you can't ban dealers as they can just go through a friend to get the art. All kinds of shenanigans in the art world, including a holier than thou dealer on one of these shows who admits to shilling at auction but somehow doesn't realize (as morally superior as he is) that it's wrong.

Anyhoo, the quote on dealers setting prices is true to an extent, in the sense that there is tomfoolery afoot behind the scenes to pass art among dealers, acting like it's sold- in an effort to manufacture the appearance of demand and the need for price increases (as one example. And yes, I didn't see a report on this on CNN so I know by definition it must just be a conspiracy theory). Ultimately it is up to the buyer to see through the games. You don't necessarily have to be an experienced art collector for this; it does help to have a good bull mess detector, however. They can certainly try to guide the market- but ultimately your dollars (and where you choose to spend them) do the talking. The devil's always gonna whisper sweet nothings in your ear, but you don't have to do as he suggests.

Edited by Bill C
wanted to ramble more
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On 11/12/2021 at 6:32 PM, Race said:

 

"The dealers set the prices."

He stated this after some of the viewers made comments about Glen or Bechara asking a ridiculous price for a page. Will was making it very clear who was in charge of the OA market -- dealers like him, Bechara and Glen.

 

That’s one of the funniest statements I’ve seen in a long time, especially the last line  

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