Time to bar dealers from buying in YouTube claim shows
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42 posts in this topic

On 11/12/2021 at 10:25 PM, artdealer said:

That’s one of the funniest statements I’ve seen in a long time, especially the last line  

Agree, a bit of a stretch, there.  Rather, those dealers set their prices for their market, many different business models out there, one size does not fit all.  (Theo, Donnellys, Rogofsky, Felix, Rozanski anyone?)  Plenty of room for all collectors to play and trade on whatever terms they choose, hopefully within the limits of common decency and fair play.  David

Edited by aokartman
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On 11/13/2021 at 9:32 AM, aokartman said:

Agree, a bit of a stretch, there.  Rather, those dealers set their prices for their market, many different business models out there, one size does not fit all.  (Theo, Donnellys, Rogofsky, Felix, Rozanski anyone?)  Plenty of room for all collectors to play and trade on whatever terms they choose, hopefully within the limits of common decency and fair play.  David

“common decency” & “fair play” = oxymoron

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On 11/12/2021 at 6:56 PM, Rick2you2 said:

No, they should not have that much freedom any more than wholesalers or manufacturers cannot have as much freedom as end-users.  Ever hear of anti-trust law? It prohibits collusion in the market to restrain trade. Dealer sales to dealers which result in market price bumps sounds at least a bit suspicious.

If dealers are engaged in practices to artificially keep prices high, that may be illegal. It is certainly something which deserves at least a spotlight of shame. This is as good as any.

If a dealer says: “we set the prices”, then I will stay away. I don’t play in a high priced sandbox anyway, so I can be satisfied with “lesser” material. 

Exactly; step away .  What prices are potentially being set in some claim show that can’t be set on eBay, on website, on HA and on clink, exactly?   Phantom stranger panel pages?    
 

You seem… eager for any opportunity to apply anti trust law but this isn’t exactly the manipulation of gas and oil prices here.    And ultimately there is nothing these guys can do in a claim show that they can’t already do elsewhere if so inclined. 

Edited by Bronty
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On 11/13/2021 at 9:51 AM, Bronty said:

Exactly; step away .  What prices are potentially being set in some claim show that can’t be set on eBay, on website, on HA and on clink, exactly?   Phantom stranger panel pages?    
 

You seem… eager for any opportunity to apply anti trust law but this isn’t exactly the manipulation of gas and oil prices here.    And ultimately there is nothing these guys can do in a claim show that they can’t already do elsewhere if so inclined. 

Actually, we don't know what the dealers are doing behind closed doors, but setting a price on eBay, standing alone, is just asking for a buyer to buy it. Nothing wrong with that. It is the collusive action of two seeming competitors acting togther where the problem lies. And by the way, manipulation of major commodities could theoretically be a violation, if someone could pull it off, but the more common situation (which is going on right now) is like where hospital chains buy up all the local competition and thereby control rate-setting. That is, there is a local component or narrow market at issue.

The core of anti-trust law is the Sherman Act. This is from the FTC's website: I added the underlining:

The Sherman Act outlaws "every contract, combination, or conspiracy in restraint of trade," and any "monopolization, attempted monopolization, or conspiracy or combination to monopolize." Long ago, the Supreme Court decided that the Sherman Act does not prohibit every restraint of trade, only those that are unreasonable. For instance, in some sense, an agreement between two individuals to form a partnership restrains trade, but may not do so unreasonably, and thus may be lawful under the antitrust laws. On the other hand, certain acts are considered so harmful to competition that they are almost always illegal. These include plain arrangements among competing individuals or businesses to fix prices, divide markets, or rig bids. These acts are "per se" violations of the Sherman Act; in other words, no defense or justification is allowed.

Now if those dealers  were effectively controlling the market on claim shows, and were privately setting prices, that would be a clear violation. But, they don't control the whole market, which lets them off the hook. 

On the other hand, why anyone is wasting their time watching those shows, when it is a safe bet the dealers are being careful not to step on each others toes, is beyond me. There are other sources and "fish in the sea". For Phantom Stranger pages, I'm not too worried. Given the demand for the character, I usually get what boils down to a discounted price--I mean, who the hell really wants them anyway? :)

 

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On 11/13/2021 at 3:29 PM, Bronty said:

Agree with your last paragraph for sure .  Other fish in the sea 

Interesting how we sometimes disagree vociferously on things, and then end up in in the same place.

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On 11/13/2021 at 9:42 AM, artdealer said:

“common decency” & “fair play” = oxymoron

Perfect. I'm gonna try to use that in a sentence today. I mean, how come when I ask too much for a comic book I want to sell, I am trying to shank a buyer but when a dealer does it, they are being "shrewd" or innocently "just trying to make a living"?

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On 11/14/2021 at 8:36 AM, Randall Ries said:

Perfect. I'm gonna try to use that in a sentence today. I mean, how come when I ask too much for a comic book I want to sell, I am trying to shank a buyer but when a dealer does it, they are being "shrewd" or innocently "just trying to make a living"?

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Interesting.  When I was first described as a "dealer", I was a little taken aback, not having thought of myself that way.  But, the reality is, once you start selling, you enter that world of judgment and opinion about your behavior, so I have always tried to be respectful of buyers and aware that their expectations might be in that context.  Even though I think of myself as a small-time hobby enthusiast/trader.  David

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On 11/14/2021 at 8:51 AM, aokartman said:

Interesting.  When I was first described as a "dealer", I was a little taken aback, not having thought of myself that way.  But, the reality is, once you start selling, you enter that world of judgment and opinion about your behavior, so I have always tried to be respectful of buyers and aware that their expectations might be in that context.  Even though I think of myself as a small-time hobby enthusiast/trader.  David

IMO, it's the television shows and webcasts that give dealers a bad name. They are positioned for the hype and the battle for entertainment. For me, it always boiled down to "I can give you this. A fair price." If a dealer doesn't want it, they don't have to take it. And even when it's me trying to sell something, I don't have to accept their offer. I know dealers are trying to earn a living or it's a side hustle, but so am I. I am generally offered a third of FMV whenever I try to sell to a dealer and so I don't sell to dealers. I don't sell at all, really.

Let me ask: What IS your approach as an OA "dealer"? I don't collect OA. I just don't have that budget. But just curious how close (or how far) you feel you are to the tv/interweb paradigm.

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On 11/14/2021 at 9:04 AM, Randall Ries said:

IMO, it's the television shows and webcasts that give dealers a bad name. They are positioned for the hype and the battle for entertainment. For me, it always boiled down to "I can give you this. A fair price." If a dealer doesn't want it, they don't have to take it. And even when it's me trying to sell something, I don't have to accept their offer. I know dealers are trying to earn a living or it's a side hustle, but so am I. I am generally offered a third of FMV whenever I try to sell to a dealer and so I don't sell to dealers. I don't sell at all, really.

Let me ask: What IS your approach as an OA "dealer"? I don't collect OA. I just don't have that budget. But just curious how close (or how far) you feel you are to the tv/interweb paradigm.

Since you ask, and things are quiet enough around here nobody will object to this OT diversion, my approach as an OA "dealer" has been largely through eBay (since 1998), this site's Marketplace, and CAF.  A handful of pieces per year at best.  I've consigned maybe three pieces to Heritage, that works, too.  An occasional local show (pre-covid) or yard sale, but OA generally gets lost locally or severely underappreciated.  No Facebook presence as a seller, nor Instagram or Youtube or similar.  Works for me, as I am not looking to raise my profile or activity level.  Hope this helps, PM me if you want.  Best, David    

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On 11/12/2021 at 6:32 PM, Race said:

You can't be serious, "what constitutes a dealer?" Perhaps you are confused, but you know who is not? The dealers! I'll leave you the quote from Will Gabriel a few months back, during one of the shows you don't watch:

"The dealers set the prices."

He stated this after some of the viewers made comments about Glen or Bechara asking a ridiculous price for a page. Will was making it very clear who was in charge of the OA market -- dealers like him, Bechara and Glen.

 

That's just plain funny AND silly but most importantly taken WAY out of context.

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On 11/12/2021 at 6:32 PM, Race said:

You can't be serious, "what constitutes a dealer?" Perhaps you are confused, but you know who is not? The dealers! I'll leave you the quote from Will Gabriel a few months back, during one of the shows you don't watch:

"The dealers set the prices."

He stated this after some of the viewers made comments about Glen or Bechara asking a ridiculous price for a page. Will was making it very clear who was in charge of the OA market -- dealers like him, Bechara and Glen.

 

Auctions play a big part in setting prices.

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On 11/15/2021 at 11:45 AM, Matches_Malone said:

Auctions play a big part in setting prices.

I just took it to mean that dealers set their prices as a function of cost plus hoped for profit, while knowing what they need to make money. If they guess wrong it can sit for years as unsold. I’ve “admired” some stalwarts like that. 

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