What are the top 10 SA books as of November 2021?
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Pantodude

Pantodude

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Many folks making good points and lists.  I think the "problem"  (if you could call it that, since it's actually cool discourse) is that a top 10 list is no longer long enough.  Valuation is difficult enough to separate from historical significance.  For example, Avengers #1 has become very important (regardless of its relative valuation) due to its spearheading the entire MCU the past decade and still going, but folks are hesitant to move it up, while SC4 should always be podium worthy for obvious reasons, but there is a worthy Marvel trifecta, too.     

Perhaps we could follow the NBA's lead.   The NBA always had an official top 50 all-time.list, but recently they've adopted a top-75 list.  That way, the original foundational greats need not be supplanted by more recent greats just because of recency bias or mere popularity.   Don't drop the Iceman (George Gervin) just b/c you are adding the likes of Giannis, Bron, Curry, Thompson, Davis, Harden, Durant, etc.   

I like that approach b/c even if folks leave out former mainstay books from their top 10 (which, after all, is a matter of personal preference), we are more likely to see DC greats in most folks' top 20.   Top 10 lists that leave out BB28 is really sad b/c it should always be mentioned, like SC22, and SC4 should be on the podium.  It's that out-of-sight/out-of-mind thing that is kind of unfair to DC.  With a top 20 list, we are more likely to see the iconic DC keys mentioned regardless of their valuation (while we wait for Warner Bros to pick up its game).  

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GAMBIT

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On 11/24/2021 at 10:33 AM, Pantodude said:

Many folks making good points and lists.  I think the "problem"  (if you could call it that, since it's actually cool discourse) is that a top 10 list is no longer long enough.  Valuation is difficult enough to separate from historical significance.  For example, Avengers #1 has become very important (regardless of its relative valuation) due to its spearheading the entire MCU the past decade and still going, but folks are hesitant to move it up, while SC4 should always be podium worthy for obvious reasons, but there is a worthy Marvel trifecta, too.     

Perhaps we could follow the NBA's lead.   The NBA always had an official top 50 all-time.list, but recently they've adopted a top-75 list.  That way, the original foundational greats need not be supplanted by more recent greats just because of recency bias or mere popularity.   Don't drop the Iceman (George Gervin) just b/c you are adding the likes of Giannis, Bron, Curry, Thompson, Davis, Harden, Durant, etc.   

I like that approach b/c even if folks leave out former mainstay books from their top 10 (which, after all, is a matter of personal preference), we are more likely to see DC greats in most folks' top 20.   Top 10 lists that leave out BB28 is really sad b/c it should always be mentioned, like SC22, and SC4 should be on the podium.  It's that out-of-sight/out-of-mind kind of thing that is kind of unfair to DC.  With a top 20 list, we are more likely to see the iconic DC keys mentioned regardless of their valuation (while we wait for Warner Bros to pick up its game).  

Bb28 can crack the top 10 list, (say #9 max, depends on the feelings one has with av1). But SC22 is just not there.  Sadly, it's on everyone's "next to blow up " list but never does.  (For at least the past 20 years)

 

 

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namisgr

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On 11/24/2021 at 12:10 PM, GAMBIT said:

Bb28 can crack the top 10 list, (say #9 max, depends on the feelings one has with av1). But SC22 is just not there.  Sadly, it's on everyone's "next to blow up " list but never does.  (For at least the past 20 years)

 

Showcase 22 certainly never exploded the way so many of the big Marvel keys have, but it appreciated in value considerably.  Less than 20 years ago, a cgc 7.5 copy could be bought for about $1,500.  Now copies in that condition go for at least 12 times that amount.

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valiantman

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On 11/24/2021 at 3:15 AM, KCOComics said:

So this is the total market? 

Meaning the number of graded issues will influence the CGCEMC?

Wouldn't sorting by P be more accurate for this exercise?

Also, how is P derived? The numbers look a little high to be a price per point?

The total market would take dozens of calculations, so this is an estimate.  Yes, the number of graded issues (N) is very important.

There's a description section at the top of the website that can be expanded for more details, which answers all those types of questions:  cgcemc.com

P is specific to the average grade.  CGC averages tend to go lower as the keys get bigger (because it's worth submitting all copies in all grades).

P is the current price of whatever the average grade is.  For books that have similar average grades, P is a good way to sort, but some Silver Age books have an average grade of 3.5 and others are 6.5.

Those aren't comparable, since a Silver Age book with an average grade of 6.5 is probably not (yet) worth submitting in the lowest grades.

Edited by valiantman
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Crimebuster

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On 11/27/2021 at 5:56 PM, Austin_t_a said:

I'd be curious to hear the reasoning for people putting JIM 83 and ToS 39 above X-Men 1.  Sure, ToS and JiM are awesome books (Thor is one of my favorite characters) but in terms of significance, I don't see how they beat the X-Men's relevance.

They are harder to find, though. 62 Marvels are tougher than 63 Marvels for sure. 

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namisgr

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On 11/27/2021 at 5:56 PM, Austin_t_a said:

I'd be curious to hear the reasoning for people putting JIM 83 and ToS 39 above X-Men 1.  Sure, ToS and JiM are awesome books (Thor is one of my favorite characters) but in terms of significance, I don't see how they beat the X-Men's relevance.

I bought new comics from 1972 to '76 and again from 1981 to '85.  During that time frame, the original X-Men team was not especially relevant, initially not even being used for original material.  Thor and Ironman, on the other hand, were long-serving Avengers and also supported their own titles.

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KCOComics

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On 11/27/2021 at 5:56 PM, Austin_t_a said:

I'd be curious to hear the reasoning for people putting JIM 83 and ToS 39 above X-Men 1.  Sure, ToS and JiM are awesome books (Thor is one of my favorite characters) but in terms of significance, I don't see how they beat the X-Men's relevance.

 

This isn't necessarily my reason, but just a different lens to think about this through. 

If you were to take all the characters that first appeared in those 3 books and rank them based on significance, who would be your top 3 most relevant characters? 

I think it would go, Thor, Ironman and then Magneto.  The heros in X-Men 1 were important, but not ground breaking. 

I think for me, it's more tied to the history of the hobby. JIM83 and TOS39 were always special books. A little harder to find, always seemed really expensive. Owning them was a big big deal for me (even in low grade). X-Men 1 was kind of around. You would see it locally at smaller shows or local shops and even nicer copies were relativity affordable. 

Honestly, that book was comparably affordable right up until a year ago. 

 

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Randall Dowling

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On 11/27/2021 at 6:22 PM, Crimebuster said:

They are harder to find, though. 62 Marvels are tougher than 63 Marvels for sure. 

This is my experience as well.  Over the last 40 years, I've seen countless X-men 1s in every grade imaginable but considerably fewer ToS 39, JiM 83, etc.  And high grade copies of Hulk 1 were practically non-existent.

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Austin_t_a

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On 11/27/2021 at 9:15 PM, KCOComics said:

 

This isn't necessarily my reason, but just a different lens to think about this through. 

If you were to take all the characters that first appeared in those 3 books and rank them based on significance, who would be your top 3 most relevant characters? 

I think it would go, Thor, Ironman and then Magneto.  The heros in X-Men 1 were important, but not ground breaking. 

I think for me, it's more tied to the history of the hobby. JIM83 and TOS39 were always special books. A little harder to find, always seemed really expensive. Owning them was a big big deal for me (even in low grade). X-Men 1 was kind of around. You would see it locally at smaller shows or local shops and even nicer copies were relativity affordable. 

Honestly, that book was comparably affordable right up until a year ago. 

 

That's a fair point about the significance of the individual characters.  Aside from Wolverine and maybe Storm, is any individual X-Men member so popular that non-comic/FoX-Men movie fans know them like they do Thor or Tony Stark now?  Maybe Juggernaut during those few years where he was a meme?

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innocuous

innocuous

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On 11/27/2021 at 2:56 PM, Austin_t_a said:

I'd be curious to hear the reasoning for people putting JIM 83 and ToS 39 above X-Men 1.  Sure, ToS and JiM are awesome books (Thor is one of my favorite characters) but in terms of significance, I don't see how they beat the X-Men's relevance.

Same reasons as above. I also don't have Avengers 1 on my list. Thor is and always has been more popular than any individual X-Men from the Silver Age. 

And, since some of you still insist that Hulk 180 is the first appearance of Wolverine, instead of 181, that means JIM83 will always be above any individual X-Men first appearance.

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KirbyJack

KirbyJack

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IMPORTANCE

1. FF1

2. AF15

3. Sho4

4. X-M1

5. BB28

6. Hulk1

7. TOS39

8. JIM83

9. ASM1

10. AV4

 

VALUE

1. AF15

2. Hulk1

3. FF1

4. Sho4

5. XM1

6. JIM83

7. TOS39

8. ASM1

9. AV1 

10. FF5

 

FAVORITES 

1. FF1

2. JIM83

3. FF4

4. TTA27

5. ST101

6. AV4

7. ST110

8. ASM1

9. AF15

10. TTA13

…of course, this could change tomorrow…

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drmanhattanite

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On 11/29/2021 at 1:54 PM, KirbyJack said:

IMPORTANCE

1. FF1

2. AF15

3. Sho4

4. X-M1

5. BB28

6. Hulk1

7. TOS39

8. JIM83

9. ASM1

10. AV4

 

VALUE

1. AF15

2. Hulk1

3. FF1

4. Sho4

5. XM1

6. JIM83

7. TOS39

8. ASM1

9. AV1 

10. FF5

 

FAVORITES 

1. FF1

2. JIM83

3. FF4

4. TTA27

5. ST101

6. AV4

7. ST110

8. ASM1

9. AF15

10. TTA13

…of course, this could change tomorrow…

almost 100%. FF1 is more valuable than Hulk1 tho.

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Pantodude

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On 11/29/2021 at 9:48 PM, drmanhattanite said:

almost 100%. FF1 is more valuable than Hulk1 tho.

Actually, IH1 has surpassed FF1 in most (all?) grades with recent sales.  An "exception" is 5.5, where in November a FF1 sold for $40800 and in December a IH1 sold for $36K, but that result for IH1 appears to have been an outlier b/c a 5.0 sold for $60K in December, compared to $34800 for a FF1 in 5.0 in November.  This is consistent with an IH1 in just 4.5 selling for $42K in December (more than the FF1 in 5.0 in December) and $38400 this month.  This could all change when certain teams join the MCU, maybe, with FF1 and XMen1 likely showing gains.  But the Hulk is expected to not only continue appearing in MCU, but also taking on bigger roles (badass villain?), so who knows. 

Edited by Pantodude
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WolverineX

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On 11/28/2021 at 2:33 PM, innocuous said:

Same reasons as above. I also don't have Avengers 1 on my list. Thor is and always has been more popular than any individual X-Men from the Silver Age. 

 

True.  But once we turn into the bronze age,  the floundering X-Men stories transformed into a powerhouse for marvel with Gsx1 and x94  and may have carried the company till now. Many of the future xmen like wolverine  are certainly more popular than Thor and that in turn has turned X men 1 into an increasingly influential book..  I love FF, but i just don't see the first family holding up as well as time goes on.... the only character I can't see xmen unseat is the ol Webhead

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