Popular Post woowoo Posted November 25, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted November 25, 2021 On 11/25/2021 at 7:23 AM, jimbo_7071 said: If I were focused on the stories instead of the art, I think my focus would be on Bronze Age material. As much as I enjoy GA cover art, most of the stories are a little unsophisticated by today's standards. Actually, the serial newspaper strips generally had some of the best comic writing in that era. People say that Barks's stories were quite good, too, so there were exceptions. I love the art and story on early Actions the way Superman looks is great Mmehdy, Mr. Lodge, tth2 and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo_7071 Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 (edited) On 11/25/2021 at 11:01 AM, Robot Man said: To tell the truth, most GA superhero books get a little boring and formula. As far as DC goes, the early Spectre, Dr. Fate, Sandman and Batman stories are quite fun. As far as other publishers go, EC, Barks ducks and the Spirit by Eisner are standouts. Sad that a lot of them have fallen behind. These have both great art and stories. The Spirit was a newspaper strip! And yes, the EC stories were quite good; I've read most of the sci-fi and horror stories in reprints. (The sci-fi stories were actually a little better than the horror stories.) Edited November 25, 2021 by jimbo_7071 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robot Man Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 On 11/25/2021 at 8:34 AM, jimbo_7071 said: The Spirit was a newspaper strip! And yes, the EC stories were quite good; I've read most of the sci-fi and horror stories in reprints. (The sci-fi stories were actually a little better than the horror stories.) The Spirit was also a 22 issue comic book run. Although, the newspaper strip inserts are a bit of a better read. It also ran for about 12 years and was quality from start to end. As far as ECs go, my personal preference for a great read are the war titles. Very different than their competitors as they were often very anti war. Incredible attention to detail in the art as well. Very historically accurate. I can't tell you how many times I've read the short Aces High run. Randall Dowling, rob_react, AJD and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo_7071 Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 On 11/25/2021 at 11:50 AM, Robot Man said: The Spirit was also a 22 issue comic book run. Although, the newspaper strip inserts are a bit of a better read. It also ran for about 12 years and was quality from start to end. As far as ECs go, my personal preference for a great read are the war titles. Very different than their competitors as they were often very anti war. Incredible attention to detail in the art as well. Very historically accurate. I can't tell you how many times I've read the short Aces High run. I've never read any of the war stories, so I'll have to check them out. I have to admit that Al Feldstein is a bit of an enigma to me. Judging from the E.C. stories while he was editor, he must have been very progressive, yet some of his pre-E.C. covers seem to have depicted women as sex objects. Maybe women's issues hadn't come to the fore yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarg Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 On 11/25/2021 at 1:08 PM, jimbo_7071 said: I've never read any of the war stories, so I'll have to check them out. I have to admit that Al Feldstein is a bit of an enigma to me. Judging from the E.C. stories while he was editor, he must have been very progressive, yet some of his pre-E.C. covers seem to have depicted women as sex objects. Maybe women's issues hadn't come to the fore yet. "Some"? All of Feldstein's covers for both Fox and EC (that portray women) depict them as sex objects, don't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo_7071 Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 On 11/25/2021 at 4:23 PM, Sarg said: "Some"? All of Feldstein's covers for both Fox and EC (that portray women) depict them as sex objects, don't they? You may be right. I would have to look them over to see whether there are any exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 (edited) Or maybe he was just doing his job and creating covers that sold to 12 year old boys? When Fabio was depicted shirtless on Harlequin romances, did you sit around wondering why the publishing house wasn't more progressive? When you read Pride and Prejudice and Elizabeth tries to decide between Bingley (very wealthy) and Darcy (twice as wealthy) did you wonder why Bronte was so materialistic? Female lead characters in books (comic or otherwise) are usually pretty. Male lead characters are usually either wealthy or heroic or both. They are written and/or drawn to be attractive to the audience. How many books or comics about awkward, physically stunted and desperately poor men trying to win the hand of really unattractive women have you read? How many movies like that have you seen? Edited November 25, 2021 by Bronty tth2, KCOComics, buttock and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicnoir Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 On 11/25/2021 at 4:44 PM, Bronty said: Or maybe he was just doing his job and creating covers that sold to 12 year old boys? When Fabio was depicted shirtless on Harlequin romances, did you sit around wondering why the publishing house wasn't more progressive? When you read Pride and Prejudice and Elizabeth tries to decide between Bingley (very wealthy) and Darcy (twice as wealthy) did you wonder why Bronte was so materialistic? Female lead characters in books (comic or otherwise) are usually pretty. Male lead characters are usually either wealthy or heroic or both. They are written and/or drawn to be attractive to the audience. How many books or comics about awkward, physically stunted and desperately poor men trying to win the hand of really unattractive women have you read? How many movies like that have you seen? That's why R.Crumb created underground comics. Randall Dowling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
batman_fan Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 (edited) On 11/25/2021 at 2:44 PM, Bronty said: Or maybe he was just doing his job and creating covers that sold to 12 year old boys? When Fabio was depicted shirtless on Harlequin romances, did you sit around wondering why the publishing house wasn't more progressive? When you read Pride and Prejudice and Elizabeth tries to decide between Bingley (very wealthy) and Darcy (twice as wealthy) did you wonder why Bronte was so materialistic? Female lead characters in books (comic or otherwise) are usually pretty. Male lead characters are usually either wealthy or heroic or both. They are written and/or drawn to be attractive to the audience. How many books or comics about awkward, physically stunted and desperately poor men trying to win the hand of really unattractive women have you read? How many movies like that have you seen? so you're saying there is an untapped market out there Edited November 25, 2021 by batman_fan tth2 and Bronty 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 On 11/25/2021 at 5:04 PM, batman_fan said: so you're saying there is an untapped market out there Bingo!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarg Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 On 11/25/2021 at 3:44 PM, Bronty said: Or maybe he was just doing his job and creating covers that sold to 12 year old boys? When Fabio was depicted shirtless on Harlequin romances, did you sit around wondering why the publishing house wasn't more progressive? When you read Pride and Prejudice and Elizabeth tries to decide between Bingley (very wealthy) and Darcy (twice as wealthy) did you wonder why Bronte was so materialistic? Female lead characters in books (comic or otherwise) are usually pretty. Male lead characters are usually either wealthy or heroic or both. They are written and/or drawn to be attractive to the audience. How many books or comics about awkward, physically stunted and desperately poor men trying to win the hand of really unattractive women have you read? How many movies like that have you seen? Not sure if this was replying to my post, but personally, I have no problem with Feldstein's women. Robot Man and Bronty 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
batman_fan Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 On 11/25/2021 at 3:08 PM, Bronty said: Bingo!! I think I found our 1st story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 (edited) On 11/25/2021 at 5:14 PM, batman_fan said: I think I found our 1st story IT WILL SELL MILLIONS!! Although even that pic.. of "ugly" people... there's nothing wrong with either of those two that a better haircut, losing the glasses, and some decent clothes wouldn't fix. Imagine putting actually ugly people on the cover Print run: negative 6. Edited November 25, 2021 by Bronty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
batman_fan Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 On 11/25/2021 at 3:16 PM, Bronty said: IT WILL SELL MILLIONS!! Although even that pic.. of "ugly" people... there's nothing wrong with either of those two that a better haircut, losing the glasses, and some decent clothes wouldn't fix. Imagine putting actually ugly people on the cover Print run: negative 6. Fact check: True. Bronty 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo_7071 Posted November 26, 2021 Share Posted November 26, 2021 On 11/25/2021 at 4:44 PM, Bronty said: Or maybe he was just doing his job and creating covers that sold to 12 year old boys? When Fabio was depicted shirtless on Harlequin romances, did you sit around wondering why the publishing house wasn't more progressive? When you read Pride and Prejudice and Elizabeth tries to decide between Bingley (very wealthy) and Darcy (twice as wealthy) did you wonder why Bronte was so materialistic? Female lead characters in books (comic or otherwise) are usually pretty. Male lead characters are usually either wealthy or heroic or both. They are written and/or drawn to be attractive to the audience. How many books or comics about awkward, physically stunted and desperately poor men trying to win the hand of really unattractive women have you read? How many movies like that have you seen? Attractive doesn't have to equal hypersexualized and objectified. Baker's women were drawn as attractive but naturalistic in a way that does not seem disrespectful or dehumanizing. I can't say the same about Feldstein's women. comicnoir 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted November 26, 2021 Share Posted November 26, 2021 (edited) On 11/25/2021 at 9:33 PM, jimbo_7071 said: Attractive doesn't have to equal hypersexualized and objectified. Baker's women were drawn as attractive but naturalistic in a way that does not seem disrespectful or dehumanizing. I can't say the same about Feldstein's women. Again, target audience - young boys. I’m glad you brought up Baker. Who do you think the target audience for Baker’s romance books was? Boys or girls? Any surprise the girls are drawn with a softer touch? Now how about archies? Those appealed to both genders and not surprisingly, the girls are depicted somewhere in between the two previous examples, yes? They were looking to sell books and I have no doubt that the content and therefore audience for a given title influenced how BOTH sexes were depicted. I’m sure the men in Baker romance books were a little more debonair and the men in the boy titles a little more physically aggressive . A little more action hero and a little less handsome gentleman. This stuff is self evident and all around you if you look a little more openly and honestly. You seem so eager to have no bias that you appear to have a bias in the other direction. This was a business first and foremost. Edited November 26, 2021 by Bronty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted November 26, 2021 Share Posted November 26, 2021 (edited) To illustrate. This is the first war comic (I dare say vastly male readership) and first romance comic (vastly female readership) I found after this thread. I didn’t dig for perfect examples - just used the first ones I saw. The War comic, the “boy” comic, has action heroes fighting for life or death and lots of female leg. The romance comic or “girl” comic has a handsome gent in a suit with girl next door types. All dialogue , no action (apart from the necking). The publishers and artists knew exactly what they were doing in portraying both sexes for both sets of readers, and that’s fine. Both genders got to read what appealed to them, so let’s not lay any fault at poor Mr Feldstein’s feet. He had a job and did it well. Edited November 26, 2021 by Bronty batman_fan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robot Man Posted November 26, 2021 Share Posted November 26, 2021 On 11/25/2021 at 2:00 PM, comicnoir said: That's why R.Crumb created underground comics. I think Crumb’s work was autobiographical and done for his own fantasies. UGs wern’t done for 12 year old boys. They were specifically for older audiences and clearly marketed as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Robot Man Posted November 26, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 26, 2021 On 11/25/2021 at 11:08 AM, jimbo_7071 said: I've never read any of the war stories, so I'll have to check them out. I have to admit that Al Feldstein is a bit of an enigma to me. Judging from the E.C. stories while he was editor, he must have been very progressive, yet some of his pre-E.C. covers seem to have depicted women as sex objects. Maybe women's issues hadn't come to the fore yet. Pick out some issues in the middle of the runs. You will get a good cross section of excellent writing and art. Gaines and Feldstein were very progressive and took on a lot of sensitive issues when they just wern’t mentioned in comic books. The Shock Suspenstories title is a good example of this. As is some of the war titles. I had the good fortune of meeting Mr Feldstein several times over the years. One of the first times was at a small LA con back in the early ‘80’s. I had brought a few books for him to sign including a nice copy of Sunny #12 (the classic ice skating cover). When he saw it, his eyes lit up and he cracked a big smile. I’m sure not many people ever had him sign those Fox books because they wern’t very collectible back then. We talked about his Fox days. He told me that Gaines hired him on account of those books. EC was getting into the romance genre and Gaines thought Al would be perfect. He said he was known as the “Boobie Guy” around the office... iggy, goldust40, Randall Dowling and 6 others 7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
circumstances Posted November 26, 2021 Share Posted November 26, 2021 (edited) On 11/26/2021 at 11:21 AM, Robot Man said: he was known as the “Boobie Guy” around the office... same, same Edited November 26, 2021 by circumstances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
