CGC census numbering 3 3

[Gotham Kid]

On 12/16/2021 at 5:29 PM, OtherEric said:

Even if a lot of people keep the labels with the de-slabbed books I bet for a majority of them the labels no longer exist. 

I am certain this is a reality.

Collectors, in particular those with a dedicated focus, would likely know best wrt true census numbers. If I show you that book A is now book B with more than enough evidence to support that, why would you need to insist on the label being handed in when it likely will never. Only end result is bloated and incorrect census as well as loss of credibility.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Gotham Kid

[Get Marwood & I]

On 12/16/2021 at 5:58 PM, Gotham Kid said:

I am certain this is a reality.

Collectors, in particular those with a dedicated focus, would likely know best wrt true census numbers. If I show you that book A is now book B with more than enough evidence to support that, why would you need to insist on the label being handed in when it likely will never.

I would guess that resources are the issue Peter. If they receive a label in the post, there's no doubt that the book has been cracked open and anyone can make a data entry adjustment accordingly without having to engage their brain. If you provide a case based on images and investigations however, then they have to set up a channel and pay someone with a modicum of nous to vet that information. CGC, in my experience, do not pay people to do things like that as they do not generate income. So it's probably as simple as they don't want to pay for the required resources that would be needed to fulfil your sensible suggestion.

On 12/16/2021 at 5:58 PM, Gotham Kid said:

Only end result is bloated and incorrect census as well as loss of credibility.

Indeed. But, like all the issues in the model, it's never quite enough to impact the bottom line. And that, it seems, is all that matters. 

[LDarkseid1]

I think calling the census a farce is a bit of a stretch. At the very least it's still a solid determination for 95%-99% of the books out there that they've graded in my opinion. There's obviously a contingent of people who crack books and don't intend to regrade and send the label back in, but I have a hard time believing there's alot of those out there. Also I don't know why some people have soo much hate towards anyone who uses census numbers when selling. I mean don't hate the player, hate the game I guess lol. I definitely do it and have no qualms using the additional rarity as a selling point, as anyone should be able to do. If I want to cite that my Strange Adventure #2 CGC 9.0 is tied for highest graded with 2 other copies and there's only 42 copies graded, you can bet I'm going to add that info with all the joy in the world .

Edited December 16, 2021 by LDarkseid1

[fifties]

On 12/15/2021 at 11:43 PM, Professor K said:

I gotta say I know there are bigger things to worry about than the veracity of the CGC census. But on the other hand your nonchalant, even cavalier viewpoint of affecting the veracity of it by cracking dozens of slabs without notifying the people who maintain the census is somewhat off-putting. Especially if you are cracking slabs of books with already low census numbers. Maybe you're the reason that book I've been waiting for years to come up for sale never does. Because you cracked them all!

I admit I'm guilty of cracking 3 or 4 books (with high population numbers) to re-sub without notifying CGC over the years, but the rare and uncommon GA books, some of which may only have 10 or 20 in the census. Don't you feel any say.....remorse? Any feeling of guilt for knowingly contributing to making the census inaccurate? 

Perhaps you created this thread as a sort of subconscious confession? As a way to lessen the guilt you feel for what you've done to the CGC census, particulary to your fellow GA collecters? 

Thank you for providing mirth to the thread! 

The only value CGC holds for me, is this website.  Frankly I hate slabbed books, because they always cost me more than if they were raw.  In addition, they have caused our hobby to become two-tiered; slabbed for "investment", and raw for collectors.  Unfortunately some of the best books (naturally) get slabbed, therefore requiring a higher expenditure than if CGC had never existed.

Once I purchase a pre code horror or crime comic book, it's MINE, to do damn well what I please with it, and I don't owe CGC a thing if it happens to be slabbed when I receive it, and becomes raw a few minutes later.  I do save the label, kept enclosed on the back of the backing board and inside the sleeve, to remind me that I had to pay extra because of them.

[Professor K]

On 12/16/2021 at 12:29 PM, OtherEric said:

 I would be more than happy to report the books as deslabbed for the census.  What I have zero willingness to do is make the effort and use the stamp to send in the labels.  However small a task it may be, the upside return just isn't there.  

This. This is why China is winning folks.

On 12/16/2021 at 4:34 PM, fifties said:

Thank you for providing mirth to the thread! 

The only value CGC holds for me, is this website.  Frankly I hate slabbed books, because they always cost me more than if they were raw.  In addition, they have caused our hobby to become two-tiered; slabbed for "investment", and raw for collectors.  Unfortunately some of the best books (naturally) get slabbed, therefore requiring a higher expenditure than if CGC had never existed.

Once I purchase a pre code horror or crime comic book, it's MINE, to do damn well what I please with it, and I don't owe CGC a thing if it happens to be slabbed when I receive it, and becomes raw a few minutes later.  I do save the label, kept enclosed on the back of the backing board and inside the sleeve, to remind me that I had to pay extra because of them.

You know I feel the same way. I was still a baseball card guy when CGC began, woke up to the wonder of comics in 2002. But when PSA came out I was very outspoken against it and for those reasons you stated.

"This will ruin the hobby" I told people. I refused to buy a CGc graded book until 2013. Then I guess I gave in, joined the "if you can't beat em, join em" club . But deep down I kind of still feel the same way. 

And of course you don't owe cgc a darn thing. It seems they don't even care much about correcting the census even when people like Peter and I'm sure others all but shove their faces in it. 

[Cat-Man_America]

This is an interesting thread offering a variety of perspectives.  Personally, I think encapsulation or "slabbing" saved the hobby or at least helped it evolve into a more sophisticated one.  I say this in spite of all the caveats, efforts at gaming the system and competitive nonsense that surrounds the whole concept of grading service submission (including two grading companies, one of which won't acknowledge the legitimacy of the other).  

FTR, I probably wouldn't have gotten back into the hobby ...especially as a GA collector... if it hadn't been for holders and third party grading analysis. There are plenty of reasons to grouse about grader opinions, census inaccuracy, label mistakes, holder designs, etc., or just lamenting the erosion of the collecting hobby in deference to investment, but it's also fair to say that the hobby was in a state of stress from malaise before the acceptance of grading services.  Holders do offer a reasonable degree of protection for these fragile pulp paper treasures and third party grading insures some degree of confidence and value consistency as well as pedigree identification.  

[fifties]

On 12/16/2021 at 6:04 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

it's also fair to say that the hobby was in a state of stress from malaise before the acceptance of grading services.

Well I'll be damned, I didn't know that.  Please to identify the time period that this was occurring.

[Dr. Love]

25 years of dealers and their relative unscrupulous ways (tinkering with books but particularly "it's a VF/NM if I'm selling it, a VG if I'm buying it") was killing us.  The internet, Ebay, had leveled it up finally and gave us access to each other.  Finally!  But then it was seller's bias added to the fact that hobbyists can't grade and it was a real problem.  But along came a neutral 3rd party with resto check.  Now you can spend some money.

Not having access to the books though, that was quite a mind bender.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Dr. Love

[Aman619]

On 12/16/2021 at 4:34 PM, fifties said:

 

Once I purchase a pre code horror or crime comic book, it's MINE, to do damn well what I please with it, and I don't owe CGC a thing if it happens to be slabbed when I receive it, and becomes raw a few minutes later.  I do save the label, kept enclosed on the back of the backing board and inside the sleeve, to remind me that I had to pay extra because of them.

No one is arguing that you can’t do what you want with your property!  Although in reality, if you allow yourself to step back a bit for a wider perspective, you’ll realize that you are just a caretaker of any comic you own.  Unless you go all out and destroy it or put in your coffin to take with you.

but if you feel this way, that you can do as you darn please with the label, and you own a valuable and/scarce book you are hurting yourself because you have inflated the census and making your copy appear less scarce.  I guess that isn’t really 100% true unless you destroy the label.  Anyone who cracks a out and saves the label for use in a sale of the book to prove its grade ISNT doing any harm to the census. 

[Cat-Man_America]

On 12/16/2021 at 8:33 PM, fifties said:

Well I'll be damned, I didn't know that.  Please to identify the time period that this was occurring.

I assume you were being facetious.  Dr. Love nailed it.  I'll add that there were a lot of honest dealers around before CGC, but there was also a lot of undisclosed restoration.  Third party grading raised respect for a hobby that was thought by many to be a playground for grifters.  What the collecting community has to be vigilant about today is keeping third party grading honest by drawing attention to examples of perceived errors and over-grading.

On 12/16/2021 at 10:40 PM, Aman619 said:

No one is arguing that you can’t do what you want with your property!  Although in reality, if you allow yourself to step back a bit for a wider perspective, you’ll realize that you are just a caretaker of any comic you own.  Unless you go all out and destroy it or put in your coffin to take with you.

but if you feel this way, that you can do as you darn please with the label, and you own a valuable and/scarce book you are hurting yourself because you have inflated the census and making your copy appear less scarce.  I guess that isn’t really 100% true unless you destroy the label.  Anyone who cracks a out and saves the label for use in a sale of the book to prove its grade ISNT doing any harm to the census. 

Excellent points.  I'll add one caveat.  That's where someone cracks out a book resubmitting it as a raw copy thinking it'll get a higher grade if no one notices.  In this scenario the book owner doesn't want anyone to know it was a lower grade before. Rolling the dice repeatedly is obviously more of a book flipping strategy rather than a collector POV.  This can also artificially exaggerate the census numbers.

[LDarkseid1]

Just looked at the census #'s for Action 1, 75 total graded with unrestored, qualified and restored. Anyone been cracking those lately? If so, and intent isn't to upgrade you have balls of steel!

[fifties]

On 12/16/2021 at 8:22 PM, Dr. Love said:

25 years of dealers and their relative unscrupulous ways (tinkering with books but particularly "it's a VF/NM if I'm selling it, a VG if I'm buying it") was killing us.  The internet, Ebay, had leveled it up finally and gave us access to each other.  Finally!  But then it was seller's bias added to the fact that hobbyists can't grade and it was a real problem.  But along came a neutral 3rd party with resto check.  Now you can spend some money.

Not having access to the books though, that was quite a mind bender.

TY for that perspective, and you are absolutely correct.  That said, as I have previously posted, I personally buy books to read, and as such generally go for fare in the G to VG range. 

Having been on eBay since 1998, I've dealt with a full range of sellers, and their description of grade pretty much follows the bell curve; a very few under-grade, most grade within reason, and some over-grade.  The latter of course one learns to stay away from.  Same with internet dealers.  I do now see a certain value in slabbing, although in books I would normally not collect.

[zzutak]

Most (if not all) old-school, high-end collectors out there know other similarly-inclined folks who have absolutely no interest in having their precious books certified and encapsulated (and possibly damaged through careless handling).  For example, none of these four beauties has ever been close to Sarasota.  Yet they all exist.