Proposed New Rule for Sales Forum 3 3

[KPR Comics]

Shall we also have a rule that a buyer must have immediately available funds in hand?  Makes about as much sense.

[wombat]

On 12/20/2021 at 11:21 AM, KPR Comics said:

Shall we also have a rule that a buyer must have immediately available funds in hand?  Makes about as much sense.

A seller can certainly add stipulations in their thread about when they expect payment. "I require payment in xx period of time". I would think a buyer not following that stipulation could be put on the probation list. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by wombat

[crassus]

On 12/20/2021 at 11:20 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Again, thanks. A formal requirement to disclose rule could only help then, would you say?

Actually, I make these  points to suggest  that no new  rule  is really necessary. Seller's doing consignment without disclosure are taking far greater risks than potential  buyers. IMO existing rules and  recent PL  precedents  suggest  strongly that buyers are protected and seller's doing consignment  would not escape accountability. 

[wombat]

Personally I think having to disclose you don't have the book in hand should be a no brainer requirement. Buyers may choose not to do business with that seller for that very reason and avoid any of the associated issues. That is not the same as saying they have recourse after the fact. 

[crassus]

On 12/20/2021 at 11:34 AM, wombat said:

Personally I think having to disclose you don't have the book in hand should be a no brainer requirement. Buyers may choose not to do business with that seller for that very reason and avoid any of the associated issues. That is not the same as saying they have recourse after the fact. 

Yes I agree there is a difference, a rule can have  the  purpose  to better regulate, in  the  hopes  of  reducing the occasions  for  drama later, but in this case I think the premise  is still arguable, how serious or prevalent is this particular problem? To add a new rule there is also the question of need. If however infrequent, say, there was a possibility of sellers escaping  accountability, than I would  see a more  immediate need, but to me the existing rules, given what I think is the small number of  incidents, allow sellers to be held  to account. I would  concede  the point that if a flood of new sellers appeared all hawking wares that none  of  them owned, creating non stop drama in the  sales  forums, something yes would  have  to be done, but I don't see that we are there yet. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by crassus

[fastballspecial]

No book in hand no selling pretty simple. 

Ask ebay sellers that presale how that goes for them.?

 

[rjpb]

As long as it is fully disclosed that the book is on consignment and not in the seller's possession, I'm okay with consignment sales. 

As far as rules are concerned, I'm still cheesed off that I had a thread yanked last summer with TJ bibles for sale as they were deemed inappropriate even though no naughty bits were pictured in the sale. What's next, underground comix?

With ebay cracking down on such material as well (though much slips by), it's getting tougher to sell anything considered remotely "adult" due to sexual content. 

[CGC Mike]

On 12/20/2021 at 12:25 PM, rjpb said:

As far as rules are concerned, I'm still cheesed off that I had a thread yanked last summer with TJ bibles for sale as they were deemed inappropriate even though no naughty bits were pictured in the sale. What's next, underground comix?

With ebay cracking down on such material as well (though much slips by), it's getting tougher to sell anything considered remotely "adult" due to sexual content. 

The terms of use were rewritten this year to be a little more lenient when it comes to sexual content.  With that said, some underground images are still not allowed.

Nude images: Given that this is a comic book collecting forum, some leeway for actual comic imagery is provided, more so than non-comic related imagery. Some nudity is allowed when it is comic related and done in a tasteful manner. However, there are many comics that are quite explicit and aren't allowed to be posted here.

[KPR Comics]

On 12/20/2021 at 11:24 AM, wombat said:

A seller can certainly add stipulations in their thread about when they expect payment. "I require payment in xx period of time". I would think a buyer not following that stipulation could be put on the probation list. 

Is that a rule? 

[rjpb]

On 12/20/2021 at 9:33 AM, CGC Mike said:

The terms of use were rewritten this year to be a little more lenient when it comes to sexual content.  With that said, some underground images are still not allowed.

Nude images: Given that this is a comic book collecting forum, some leeway for actual comic imagery is provided, more so than non-comic related imagery. Some nudity is allowed when it is comic related and done in a tasteful manner. However, there are many comics that are quite explicit and aren't allowed to be posted here.

Does that pertain to just images included in the sale, or content not shown as well? I can somewhat understand prohibitions on showing overt sexual imagery (as culturally we've decided this is more offensive than excessive gore and torture), but including unshown content seems overly prudish. Is CGC planning on refusing to slab underground comics with explicit sexual content in the future, because I see quite a few on the census, including ones with titles you can't even use in the forums. Would threads selling these comics be yanked even if the books in question had been slabbed by CGC?

[wombat]

On 12/20/2021 at 12:46 PM, KPR Comics said:

Is that a rule? 

Is what a rule? That a buyer can stipulate payments terms?

[CGC Mike]

On 12/20/2021 at 12:47 PM, rjpb said:

Does that pertain to just images included in the sale, or content not shown as well? I can somewhat understand prohibitions on showing overt sexual imagery (as culturally we've decided this is more offensive than excessive gore and torture), but including unshown content seems overly prudish. Is CGC planning on refusing to slab underground comics with explicit sexual content in the future, because I see quite a few on the census, including ones with titles you can't even use in the forums. Would threads selling these comics be yanked even if the books in question had been slabbed by CGC?

I am only concerned about images. It is fine to sell underground comics as long as the nudity in the form of images posted isn't too explicit.  

[MattTheDuck]

On 12/20/2021 at 9:49 AM, wombat said:

Is what a rule? That a buyer can stipulate payments terms?

That a buyer has to meet payment terms regarding making payment within x days/weeks or risk the probation list.  

I doubt there'd be much support for a PL nomination for taking 4 days to pay when 3 were "required" by the seller.

[KPR Comics]

On 12/20/2021 at 12:49 PM, wombat said:

Is what a rule? That a buyer can stipulate payments terms?

What I bolded of yours.  Is there a rule that says if seller stipulates payment window and buyer doesn't comply, then it is probation list worthy?  I looked and didn't find it.  There is a 30 day rule, but no exclusion for a shorter, stipulated period.

[wombat]

On 12/20/2021 at 12:58 PM, KPR Comics said:

What I bolded of yours.  Is there a rule that says if seller stipulates payment window and buyer doesn't comply, then it is probation list worthy?  I looked and didn't find it.  There is a 30 day rule, but no exclusion for a shorter, stipulated period.

Is there a rule at all about what is PL worthy?

As an example I would imagine if a seller stipulated a fast payment (let's say 48 hrs) and a buyer insisted on taking 30 days to pay there would be a lot of support for that person to be placed on the PL list. 

[crassus]

On 12/20/2021 at 10:51 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Thanks Crassus.

For the sake of argument, and to clarify the current position, if a seller put a book up for sale that they didn't have in hand, and did not disclose that fact, would any subsequent buyer be in a position to nominate them to be 'dragged through the muck', claiming deception, if the seller could not then fulfil the deal for reasons beyond their control?

And if so, what would that dragging through the muck actually constitute?

I'm thinking of two scenarios

1. Seller secures x copies of a variant from, say, Metropolis. Advertises on the boards without disclosing that they are not in hand. Buyer buys, Metropolis fails, seller refunds buyer. Buyer not happy, as could have secured elsewhere if they had known the copy wasn't in hand
2. Seller secures x copies of a variant from, say, Metropolis. Advertises on the boards but discloses that they are not in hand. Buyer buys, Metropolis fails, seller refunds buyer. Buyer cannot complain as they knew the risks

Hi, quoting again because I just realized you had added specific scenarios. My original answer mostly addressed #1 but not #2. I will say about #2 that the devil is in the details, if the seller fully discloses that there is a third party involved, and that should circumstances beyond  their control prevent the books  from being delivered, a full and immediate refund will be made to the buyer (and assuming it is) than yes imo the buyer could not complain. I say the devil is in the details because disclosing "books not in hand" is not the same as a fuller disclosure of "books presently with and dependent upon third party delivery" etc....but again, I do not know how  often these kind of situations arise in the sales forums. 

[wombat]

On 12/20/2021 at 12:54 PM, MattTheDuck said:

That a buyer has to meet payment terms regarding making payment within x days/weeks or risk the probation list.  

I doubt there'd be much support for a PL nomination for taking 4 days to pay when 3 were "required" by the seller.

Probably not. And by the time it came up the payment would most likely already have been made. But consider a longer time period and I think that might get more support. 

[rjpb]

On 12/20/2021 at 9:53 AM, CGC Mike said:

I am only concerned about images. It is fine to sell underground comics as long as the nudity in the form of images posted isn't too explicit.  

So then TJ bibles are okay in the future, as long as the covers aren't explicit or naughty bits covered?

[KPR Comics]

On 12/20/2021 at 1:01 PM, wombat said:

Is there a rule at all about what is PL worthy?

As an example I would imagine if a seller stipulated a fast payment (let's say 48 hrs) and a buyer insisted on taking 30 days to pay there would be a lot of support for that person to be placed on the PL list. 

There is.   I stand by my earlier post.  If you're going to have a rule about goods in hand, you should have a rule about funds in hand.  But frankly, both rules are tits on a bull.  

 

 

[CGC Mike]

On 12/20/2021 at 1:06 PM, rjpb said:

So then TJ bibles are okay in the future, as long as the covers aren't explicit or naughty bits covered?

Yes.