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The Ins and Outs of Auction House Bids (Heritage, Comiclink, Comic Connect, etc.)
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74 posts in this topic

On 2/3/2022 at 3:55 AM, MAR1979 said:

There is whole bunch of stuff legal for Auction Houses In Texas and the way I interpret what i read is the house is permitted to drive any bid to the max.

The horror stories are real.

 

 

If this was all true (which it's not), wouldn't this mean that they would definitely be the best auction house for a seller? 

I mean how great would it be, as a consignor, to know that the auction house is going to squeeze every last possible penny out of every bidder for me?  

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On 2/3/2022 at 12:23 AM, tth2 said:

If this was all true (which it's not), wouldn't this mean that they would definitely be the best auction house for a seller? 

I mean how great would it be, as a consignor, to know that the auction house is going to squeeze every last possible penny out of every bidder for me?  

Because sometimes, the shill wins. That means the shill has to pay for purchase. Were the auction house to let the shill off, that would be a form of fraud, as well as costing the auction house it’s commission.

The one which makes me most suspicious is Catawiki. The way pricing patterns develop sometimes is disturbing, like a second counter bid only after I have placed a bid, after the item has sat dead for a long time. Another one up by me, another counter, and then, no action by me so it reverts to dead and stays there. Or, a single bid just shy of the estimated price, and then, no action. I tend to buy unpopular pieces, so movement on some of my targets when there are clear multiple bidders isn’t too common for me. In those cases, see Rule No. 1 and decide if you want it or not.

Edited by Rick2you2
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On 2/3/2022 at 7:32 PM, Rick2you2 said:
On 2/3/2022 at 1:23 PM, tth2 said:

If this was all true (which it's not), wouldn't this mean that they would definitely be the best auction house for a seller? 

I mean how great would it be, as a consignor, to know that the auction house is going to squeeze every last possible penny out of every bidder for me?  

Because sometimes, the shill wins. That means the shill has to pay for purchase. Were the auction house to let the shill off, that would be a form of fraud, as well as costing the auction house it’s commission.

Remember in the specious scenario being described above, the shill is the auction house, not me, the consignor. 

So why would I care if the auction house wins and has to pay?  All I care about is getting the maximum price and getting paid.  I've done nothing wrong.  Which is why if Heritage (not the consignor) really did shill everything up to the max, then they would hands down be the auction house of choice for consignors. 

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On 2/3/2022 at 9:26 AM, tth2 said:

Remember in the specious scenario being described above, the shill is the auction house, not me, the consignor. 

So why would I care if the auction house wins and has to pay?  All I care about is getting the maximum price and getting paid.  I've done nothing wrong.  Which is why if Heritage (not the consignor) really did shill everything up to the max, then they would hands down be the auction house of choice for consignors. 

Fair point. But, it does undercut the willingness of people to buy at that auction house, and a house shill can’t be a winning shill on too many items without going broke. 

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On 2/3/2022 at 10:21 AM, Bronty said:

Well, I've done it, and I wasn't bid up - draw your own conclusions about my ball size and about whether or not they bid people up to max.

This is the only way I win auctions that I have to win. It’s risky if it backfires, but most people aren’t 🤪 enough to grossly overpay the way I am ready to. 

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On 2/3/2022 at 12:27 PM, Rick2you2 said:

Fair point. But, it does undercut the willingness of people to buy at that auction house, and a house shill can’t be a winning shill on too many items without going broke. 

Well...IF this was happening, House wouldn't pay BP (20%) and would still collect SP (from consignor) to net against "the win", so...going broke? (shrug)

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Not to mention agreements on BP for sellers that go below 20% (well below, you’d be surprised) the deals HA makes for some sellers.

“outsmarting yourself” by overbidding on your own item say 10% and eating the cost of buying your own listing (actually advertising for developing a new Fair Market Value) some of these bidders adjust their own pricing for lucrative private sales and easily make up the loss on BP. Or relist  the item at a new auction with more realistic shill bids. The new falsely created FMV draws new fresh blood bids, and makes for a robust actual sale to make up for the fake shill listing (allegedly).

There are a fair amount of items that “sell” at auction and are listed again within a short period of time (1-12 months) Most collectors assume these are flippers. I contend IMHO that some of these quick reauctioned pieces could be failed shill shenanigans (allegedly) 

I  don’t h8 the game anymore.

I try to beat it.

Or I stay on the sidelines and keep my hands from getting burned.

🍇 🦍 

Edited by grapeape
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On 2/3/2022 at 1:35 PM, vodou said:

Well...IF this was happening, House wouldn't pay BP (20%) and would still collect SP (from consignor) to net against "the win", so...going broke? (shrug)

Because they would have “overpaid”. Or the piece sits around forever waiting for the market to catch up and they lose the use of the money.

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On 2/3/2022 at 3:07 PM, grapeape said:

Not to mention agreements on BP for sellers that go below 20% (well below, you’d be surprised) the deals HA makes for some sellers.

“outsmarting yourself” by overbidding on your own item say 10% and eating the cost of buying your own listing (actually advertising for developing a new Fair Market Value) some of these bidders adjust their own pricing for lucrative private sales and easily make up the loss on BO. Or relist  the item at a new auction with more realistic shill bids. The new falsely created FMV draws new fresh blood bids, and makes for a robust actual sale to make up for the fake shill listing (allegedly).

There are a fair amount of items that “sell” at auction and are listed again within a short period of time (1-12 months) Most collectors assume these are flippers. I contend IMHO that some of these quick reauctioned pieces could be failed shill shenanigans (allegedly) 

I  don’t h8 the game anymore.

I try to beat it.

Or I stay on the sidelines and keep my hands from getting burned.

🍇 🦍 

I agree with you about that aspect of shill bidding—but it is our collective fault when we then buy it eventually. What doesn’t help is that these OA purchases are pretty frivolous. So people who have the extra money are willing to burn it. Let’s see how the worm turns now that the most recent employment report wasn’t too hot, and consumers are just starting to watch their budgets in the face of all the inflation.

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On 2/3/2022 at 6:05 PM, Rick2you2 said:

Because they would have “overpaid”. Or the piece sits around forever waiting for the market to catch up and they lose the use of the money.

I know of the thread you're pulling at, and I thought I was too much on this subject!, but it's so much more than that.

On a onesie, you're correct. But those doing this seriously...it's a volume situation, it's run like a business (because it is a business) -net, end of reporting period is what matters. "Buy" one (back) here or there, but push to the top on 5-25 others...all in a good day of work and that one here or there is nothing but a little friction against all the winners. I mean...you're involved professionally in NJ construction contracts and I'm telling you how it works? C'mon :) 

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On 2/3/2022 at 7:46 PM, vodou said:

I know of the thread you're pulling at, and I thought I was too much on this subject!, but it's so much more than that.

On a onesie, you're correct. But those doing this seriously...it's a volume situation, it's run like a business (because it is a business) -net, end of reporting period is what matters. "Buy" one (back) here or there, but push to the top on 5-25 others...all in a good day of work and that one here or there is nothing but a little friction against all the winners. I mean...you're involved professionally in NJ construction contracts and I'm telling you how it works? C'mon :) 

If you really want to get into details, you have to distinguish between direct cost losses and overhead losses. Businesses will put up with the latter in the short run to keep workers employed, but rarely take a hit willingly on direct cost losses. So, in context, they may be willing to sustain lost commissions, but won’t take it lightly if they overpay for a piece. That ties up their capital, too.

As to your point, if they can crack a market, contractors will even take a small hit on direct costs. So, in reverse context, if a dealer, rep, or even an artist can effect a market price change for a product of which they have a lot of, price manipulation, and the cost of getting stuck with too high a winning bid, is not a bad deal.  As such, if you see a piece by an artist who rarely has something put up for sale, be careful what you bid. It’s a prime candidate for price- influencing and may be the first of many to come.

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On 2/4/2022 at 1:27 AM, Rick2you2 said:
On 2/3/2022 at 10:26 PM, tth2 said:

Remember in the specious scenario being described above, the shill is the auction house, not me, the consignor. 

So why would I care if the auction house wins and has to pay?  All I care about is getting the maximum price and getting paid.  I've done nothing wrong.  Which is why if Heritage (not the consignor) really did shill everything up to the max, then they would hands down be the auction house of choice for consignors. 

Expand  

Fair point. But, it does undercut the willingness of people to buy at that auction house, and a house shill can’t be a winning shill on too many items without going broke. 

But Heritage are the most successful comic auction house, by far. 

So clearly they are successfully attracting both bidders and consignors.  Following your own arguments, how can this be if they really are shilling up bidders to an inch of their life? 

Is it just possible that they're NOT doing this?

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On 2/3/2022 at 11:16 PM, tth2 said:

But Heritage are the most successful comic auction house, by far. 

So clearly they are successfully attracting both bidders and consignors.  Following your own arguments, how can this be if they really are shilling up bidders to an inch of their life? 

Is it just possible that they're NOT doing this?

I never said they were. That was an assumption someone made, and I went with it. In fact, I doubt they are.

Heritage also provides excellent support, IMHO, advertises a lot, and gives fair descriptions of its product. Heck, BMW does something comparable with cars, and gets away with charging a premium price, too, despite long-term maintenance costs. The taint to their reputation of engaging in, or actively supporting, shilling could cost them their business model. A little tolerance, okay, but not so much as to cause reputational injury.

Edited by Rick2you2
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