The Ins and Outs of Auction House Bids (Heritage, Comiclink, Comic Connect, etc.) 2 2

[Hekla]

On 2/2/2022 at 1:10 PM, Bronty said:

I thought that was only below reserve on reserve lots?

if you ask around everyone on this board has won items for way less than their max bid.   I won a lot for 10% of what I bid once.

I won an animation cel for $1 once (years ago, before the current animation cel hype). I placed the bid early and totally forgot about it until the invoice.

 

re: Heritage, I still bid on Heritage items knowing that there could be house bids, but I generally stick to a FMV number and do not exceed it. As a consequence, I rarely win anymore

[Rick2you2]

On 2/4/2022 at 12:55 PM, Hekla said:

I won an animation cel for $1 once (years ago, before the current animation cel hype). I placed the bid early and totally forgot about it until the invoice.

 

re: Heritage, I still bid on Heritage items knowing that there could be house bids, but I generally stick to a FMV number and do not exceed it. As a consequence, I rarely win anymore

What the heck is FMV if people are looking for guidance on pricing based on winning bids where prices have been inflated by “assistance”? 

[The Voord]

On 2/2/2022 at 3:37 PM, kbmcvay said:

Question- Does Heritage (or any other auction house) allow employees to drive up the price to near your maximum (which they know) with no intention of winning the art? I think I read about this awhile ago but wanted to make sure I wasn't incorrect.

I think you make a good point, here.  Last year Heritage offered two grouping of 'Demon With a Glass Hand' artworks (I'm a big fan of this Outer Limits teleplay made into graphic novel format by DC in 1986).  For the first group of offerings, my five wins were at or very near the top bids I submitted (averaging around $1,500 per page plus BP).  I didn't participate in the live auctions, just submitted my best maximum prices . . . and trusted Heritage to keep things honest.  For the second grouping of DWAG pages, I decided to go the route of participating in the live auctions.  End result?  I won 11 out of 14 pages at prices between $500 - 900 apiece.  Big difference!  Although nothing's proven by this personal experience, I no longer feel comfortable with the idea of leaving my highest maximum bid for the auction house to act on and, going forward, will always save my bidding for the live auctions.

Edited February 5, 2022 by The Voord

[vodou]

On 2/5/2022 at 4:51 AM, Qarlo Clobreggny said:

I no longer feel comfortable with the idea of leaving my highest maximum bid for the auction house to act on and, going forward, will always save my bidding for the live auctions.

There ya go! Congratulations on having so much of what you want hit the market and end up in your hands  

[cloud cloddie]

On 2/5/2022 at 1:51 AM, Qarlo Clobreggny said:

I think you make a good point, here.  Last year Heritage offered two grouping of 'Demon With a Glass Hand' artworks (I'm a big fan of this Outer Limits teleplay made into graphic novel format by DC in 1986).  For the first group of offerings, my five wins were at or very near the top bids I submitted (averaging around $1,500 per page plus BP).  I didn't participate in the live auctions, just submitted my best maximum prices . . . and trusted Heritage to keep things honest.  For the second grouping of DWAG pages, I decided to go the route of participating in the live auctions.  End result?  I won 11 out of 14 pages at prices between $500 - 900 apiece.  Big difference!  Although nothing's proven by this personal experience, I no longer feel comfortable with the idea of leaving my highest maximum bid for the auction house to act on and, going forward, will always save my bidding for the live auctions.

The lower prices can just as easily be attributed to subject fatigue or less eyes on an auction. Late last year HA had up a bunch of German magazine cover paintings. They were split up over 5 weeks or so. The pieces I won on the last week were about half what they were going for at the start. 
But I get it. I only bid live as well. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by cloud cloddie

[Bronty]

I bid live but not because I think the house will bid me up.  I think other (legit) bidders may bid me up and gain confidence to bid more if they see a strong early bid.    
 

This is similar to bidding early on eBay vs placing a snipe.   I prefer the snipe route every time. 
 

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Bronty

[vodou]

On 2/5/2022 at 11:16 AM, Bronty said:

I bid live but not because I think the house will bid me up.  I think other (legit) bidders may bid me up and gain confidence to bid more if they see a strong early bid.    

Same difference, doesn't matter, the point is: no unforced errors by making yourself a target  

[Bronty]

On 2/5/2022 at 11:34 AM, vodou said:

Same difference, doesn't matter, the point is: no unforced errors by making yourself a target  

The suggested course of action is the same,yes,  but the reasoning is completely different and I think that’s an important distinction .

Say there’s a turd on my kitchen floor.   I’ll be more forgiving if it’s the dog than if it was my teenage kid.    Same result - but the details matter ;)

Edited February 5, 2022 by Bronty

[vodou]

On 2/5/2022 at 12:27 PM, Bronty said:

...the reasoning is completely different and I think that’s an important distinction .

Do you really want to keep digging at this? Okay. The distinction is whether the culprit is House or non-House parties.

I'd still argue from the bidder's pov it doesn't matter, shilled is shilled (by whoever)...always sucks; except for one important distinction: making benchmarks and headlines.

I agree with convicted cheat Bill Mastro: the House doesn't need to "help" categories that are healthy running bulls, no, the House "help" is needed for categories that aren't running, that need a nudge or three to put up the right or headline numbers. Like...$5m Frazetta oils? Or...other stuff.

But what do I know? Nothing except the terrible deafening live silence of waiting for that one phone bid to finally come in, when there are no other bidders.

[The Voord]

On 2/5/2022 at 4:02 PM, cloud cloddie said:

The lower prices can just as easily be attributed to subject fatigue or less eyes on an auction. Late last year HA had up a bunch of German magazine cover paintings. They were split up over 5 weeks or so. The pieces I won on the last week were about half what they were going for at the start. 
But I get it. I only bid live as well. 

Separate (standalone) paintings?  My auctions involved the contents of a single book!  

[Bronty]

On 2/5/2022 at 1:04 PM, vodou said:

Do you really want to keep digging at this? Okay. The distinction is whether the culprit is House or non-House parties.

I'd still argue from the bidder's pov it doesn't matter, shilled is shilled (by whoever)...always sucks; except for one important distinction: making benchmarks and headlines.

I agree with convicted cheat Bill Mastro: the House doesn't need to "help" categories that are healthy running bulls, no, the House "help" is needed for categories that aren't running, that need a nudge or three to put up the right or headline numbers. Like...$5m Frazetta oils? Or...other stuff.

But what do I know? Nothing except the terrible deafening live silence of waiting for that one phone bid to finally come in, when there are no other bidders.

I have no quarrel with what you’re saying.  I just see a lot of people complaining from time to time that they got bid up to their 5k max on their 5k marvel key and conclude that they are being shilled.    Like, really?   When does a marvel key worth 5k ever not sell for roughly 5k?    I’ll call out that accusation all day long because it’s lazy thinking.   

[Rick2you2]

On 2/5/2022 at 11:16 AM, Bronty said:

I bid live but not because I think the house will bid me up.  I think other (legit) bidders may bid me up and gain confidence to bid more if they see a strong early bid.    
 

This is similar to bidding early on eBay vs placing a snipe.   I prefer the snipe route every time. 
 

 

I would agree for “good” pieces, but for so-so items, a high early proxy bid may knock out interest from others as the recorded price rises. They might otherwise hang around and take a last minute shot. I wouldn’t do it on an expensive piece, however, since the object isn’t so great to begin with.

[The Voord]

Just to expand a bit more on my 'Demon With a Glass Hand' wins of last year, In June Heritage offered a grouping of nine pages.  I won five of the nine pages submitting my highest bids for the auction house to bid on my behalf.

Here are the results of the June auction (in prices realized order, including BP):

Page 47 - $4,080 - whereabouts unknown

Pages 4 and 14 (job-lot) - $2,880 - collection of Joe Murray

Page 5 - $2880 - collection of Joe Murray

Page 13 - $1,680 - collection of Terry Doyle (me)

Page 40 - $1,680 - collection of Terry Doyle (me)

Page 6 - $1,560 - collection of Terry Doyle (me)

Page 41 - $1,560 - collection of Terry Doyle (me)

Page 43 - $1,440 - collection of Terry Doyle (me)

Here are the results of the September to December weekly auctions (one page per week) in which I switched to live bidding and won eleven pages of the fourteen on offer (in prices realized order, including BP):

Page 20 - $960 - collection of Terry Doyle (me)

Page 7 - $900 - collection of Terry Doyle (me)

Page 28 - $900 - collection of Terry Doyle (me)

Page 29 - $840 - collection of Terry Doyle (me)

Page 23 - $660 - whereabouts unknown

page 24 - $630 - whereabouts unknown

Page 9 - $576 - collection of Terry Doyle (me)

Page 25 - $576 - collection of Terry Doyle (me)

Page 35 - $576 - collection of Terry Doyle (me)

Page 3 - $528 - collection of Terry Doyle (me)

Page 8 - $528 - collection of Terry Doyle (me)

Page 17 - $432 - collection of Terry Doyle (me)

Page 18 - $432 - collection of Terry Doyle (me)

Page 2 - $408 - whereabouts unknown

Admittedly, the first group of pages in the June auction yielded some standout examples, which may well explain the higher prices.  I do know that my main competitor, Joe Murray, was bidding in both sets of auctions (though perhaps not aggressively second time round?).  I'm trying not to read anything conclusive about all this, other than by switching my bidding strategy to competing directly in the Live Auctions I made substantial savings (I simply don't know why the big switch in prices realized, even if might now harbor some niggling doubts about the maximum bid submitted process).  As mentioned in my earlier post, Live Bidding is now the way forward for me.  Make of it what you will . . . 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by The Voord

[Bronty]

So you say the better examples in the (signature?) June auction went for more, and the lesser examples in the weeklies went for less.   I’m surprised you’d think there’s any foul play?     That being said, sure, bid live and remove the doubt.  

Edited February 6, 2022 by Bronty

[alexgross.com]

On 2/2/2022 at 7:37 AM, kbmcvay said:

Question- Does Heritage (or any other auction house) allow employees to drive up the price to near your maximum (which they know) with no intention of winning the art? I think I read about this awhile ago but wanted to make sure I wasn't incorrect.

the number of firsthand stories of people whose very high proxy bids were met before the item even went live at heritage, including my own personal experience, have convinced me never to pre-bid there. if i want something at heritage, i will only bid during the live auction, if the price is right. 

[Hekla]

On 2/4/2022 at 4:20 PM, Rick2you2 said:

What the heck is FMV if people are looking for guidance on pricing based on winning bids where prices have been inflated by “assistance”? 

Fair point

[The Voord]

On 2/6/2022 at 2:32 PM, Bronty said:

So you say the better examples in the (signature?) June auction went for more, and the lesser examples in the weeklies went for less.   I’m surprised you’d think there’s any foul play?     That being said, sure, bid live and remove the doubt.  

There were a few comparable examples in the second groupings.  All part of a standalone book, where making-up sequences play a part. Foul play?  I simply don't know . . . maybe I'm a natural sceptic and like to consider possibilities?. 

[Rick2you2]

On 2/6/2022 at 8:44 AM, Qarlo Clobreggny said:

Page 47 - $4,080 - whereabouts unknown

Just out of curiosity, why was this page so much more than the others?

[Grendel72]

It's the key page in the entire story where the protagonist finds out that he isnt human, but a robot. 

[The Voord]

On 2/6/2022 at 3:51 PM, Grendel72 said:

It's the key page in the entire story where the protagonist finds out that he isnt human, but a robot. 

Sorry, I did reply but hadn't seen that you were responding directly to Rick2you2 ( so I deleted my original reply).

Yes, page 47 is a KEY page (in terms of story content/climax) but, personally, I don't think it's a particularly noteworthy page, visually.  I did bid on the page, but there were other examples more important to me (that I won).