The story of a promise made during the Korean War 9 9

[sfcityduck]

EDITED BY THE AUTHOR TO ADD:  WARNING - SPECULATION IN THIS THREAD MAY BE INCORRECT! 

 

Thought some folks might find this bit of history interesting:

A little over one year ago, Bob Dumas passed away after devoting the last 70 years of his life to keeping a promise he made to his parents. The promise was made after Bob and his family learned that Bob’s younger brother Roger had been declared missing in action ("MIA") in Korea as of November 4, 1950, due to a Chinese offensive that encircled Roger's battalion.  The battalion broke out of the encirclement, but Roger and many others were unaccounted for after the running battle.  

Bob told the story of the promise he made many times during his life, perhaps most famously during a U.S. Senate Hearing in 1992: "I made a promise to my mother and father in 1950 that I would never stop looking for him until I brought him home dead or alive." 

Bob's promise made sense.  At that time, being MIA often meant being a POW.  Communication between the North Koreans and Chinese forces, on the one hand, and the United Nations forces, on the other, regarding POWs was spartan as the Chinese did not commit to the Geneva Convention until July 17, 1952.  Thus, it was reasonable for Bob and his parents to believe that Roger might have been captured.  

Bob kept his promise to his parents by volunteering for front line duty in Korea so he could look for Roger in whatever free time he might have.  An obituary states that Bob served two tours of duty and earned three Bronze stars while on the front lines.  But Bob didn’t find Roger before the U.S., in line with newly elected President Eisenhower's campaign promise to end the Korean War, entered into the Korean armistice in 1953.  Roger also wasn’t one of the prisoners of war (“POWs”) returned to the U.S. by the North Koreans and Chinese in August 1953.  Instead, Roger was presumed dead as of February 26, 1954, as a result of a decision made by the Eisenhower Administration to declare all POW/MIAs who had not been returned or otherwise accounted for as "deceased."  

Still, Bob and his family did not give up hope that Roger was alive, instead they continued to believe Roger had been taken as a prisoner of war and could be brought home.  Bob and Roger's father died in 1955. In 1959, six years after the Korean War had purportedly ended, Bob reaffirmed his promise to his mother as she lay on her death bed.  As Bob relayed in one of his many media interviews regarding Roger, "I walked in front of her bed, and she thought I was Roger.  I said 'No, I'm Bob.' She said, 'I thought it was Roger. I know he's alive. Promise me you'll always look for him.'  I promised." 

Because Bob knew in his heart that Roger was alive, he never did stop looking for him.  Roger's remains have never been found.  In his search for Roger, Bob became a tireless advocate for Korean POW/MIAs.  Bob made many trips to D.C. to meet with government officials, Congressmen, Senators, and at least one President (Reagan) to discuss Roger and POW/MIA issues. Bob testified multiple times to Congress, appeared in many media reports, and was the subject of documentaries.  Bob even met with North Korean ambassadors.  Later events would prove that Bob's hope concerning Roger was justified.  Ultimately, Bob developed conclusive evidence that Roger had not been killed in action when he was declared MIA but had been captured and placed in a POW camp.  

Bob kept the promise to his parents to never give up looking for Roger until the day he died.  Bob's dedication ultimately made Roger a symbol of America's abandonment of  POWs held by North Korea after the Korean Armistice in 1953. It also caused Bob to become a leading activist on behalf of families seeking government action to obtain the return of POW/MIAs, and it put Bob in conflict with the highest echelons of the U.S. government – a conflict in which Bob won a significant court battle in 1983 which resulted in the re-classification of Roger from MIA to POW and the recognition that Roger was entitled to a POW medal. 

As a result, Roger, whose name is inscribed on the Courts of the Missing at the Honolulu Memorial, is a recipient of the Purple Heart, POW Medal, National Defense Service Medal, Korean Service Medal, United Nations Service Medal, Republic of Korea War Services Medal, Republic of Korea Presidential Unit Citation, and the Combat Infantryman Badge. Roger was also elevated at some point from Private First Class to Corporal.

That POW Medal was especially significant to Bob.  Bob testified in Congress that, even though the government presented it as a posthumous honor to Roger's family, Bob viewed the medal as Roger's property, not Bob's.  Bob viewed himself as just a custodian of that medal until the day Roger would return and Bob could pin it on him.  

Bob spoke often about the promise he made to his parents and the media took notice. From the 1970s until Bob’s death, numerous articles referencing Bob’s promise to his parents to find Roger appeared in newspapers, national publications like Newsweek, and internet sites.  When Bob died, tributes emphasized that Bob never gave up.  Bob and Roger deserve honor and recognition for their heroism at war and for Bob's heroism in untiring activism in support of Roger and other POW/MIAs.

Does this story have anything to do with comic books?  Maybe or maybe not.  Through many many hours of research, I have found no mention of Bob and Roger and comic books.  Bob and Roger may have nothing to do with the Promise Collection.  Only Heritage, who possesses and is marketing all of the books, can answer that question.  However, it is notable that Bob's full name is Robert Dumas, and Heritage disclosed that the surviving brother holding custody of the Promise Collection was named "Robert."  Here are some interesting media references to Bob using his full name of "Robert:"

 

And it is also notable that Roger (the most junior of seven children) has the middle name "Armand," a name that appears on select copies of Promise Collection books that hit the stands between June and August of 1949:

BUT the overlap in names and that a central fact of the story of Robert ("Bob") and Roger Armand Dumas is a promise are NOT proof they are the "Robert" and younger brother "known as Junie" (usually used as a short form of "Junior") at the heart of the story that Heritage has told to market the "Promise" Collection. 

Honestly, I cannot reconcile a number of the facts relayed by Heritage in marketing the Promise Collection with the facts I have uncovered about Bob and Roger, including details regarding enlistment, date of the OO's death, etc.  So, there may be no connection at all.  But the story of Bob and Roger is fascinating history that deserves to be remembered.  I hope you'll forgive me for telling it if it has no tie to comic books.

On the other hand, it may be that most of the discrepancies in the two stories are immaterial, perhaps just a harmless “fudging of the facts" by Heritage intended to serve as misdirection.  I have more info to share that would tend to support a tie between the story I just told and the Promise Collection. For example, the story of Bob's search for Roger may well explain why the comics were bagged, boarded, and boxed some 20 years or so ago, but not sold, in way that is far better than the explanation afforded by the marketing story told by Heritage of the Promise Collection. The story of Bob and Roger might also explain why only three months of Promise Collection books say "Armand" on the cover.  And other information does point to Bob and Roger as being “Robert” and “Junie,” albeit not conclusively.  If there is interest, I'll share additional information and my opinions.

Let's face it, the comic collecting community, especially folks who have bought Promise Collection books, deserve to know the story on the collection.  Especially if a story as significant as Bob and Roger's is the backstory on the Promise Collection. If so, the comics have a historic and symbolic value that is greater than that disclosed by the marketing story told by Heritage.  If the Promise Collection were Roger's comics, preserved by Bob to return to Roger once he was found and brought home, in fulfillment of Bob's promise to his parents, then there could be no better name for such a collection than the "Promise Collection." 

But let's be clear, the comics would just be a footnote to Bob and Roger's stories.  They will be remembered for their historical significance and heroism, not for a comic book collection - except by us collectors who will cherish our connection to their history ... if it exists.

I believe it is time for Heritage to weigh in.  At the very least, in order to avoid any confusion Heritage should, if truthful, flatly deny that the Dumas brothers are the brothers who compiled and saved the Promise Collection.  

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by sfcityduck

[LearnedHand]

Amazing post!  Thanks for sharing; and yes, definitely interested in the additional info.  If nothing else, I just learned about two American heroes and a family that instilled grit and integrity in their children.    

[sfcityduck]

On 2/15/2022 at 2:55 PM, LearnedHand said:

Amazing post!  Thanks for sharing; and yes, definitely interested in the additional info.  If nothing else, I just learned about two American heroes and a family that instilled grit and integrity in their children.    

Thanks.  That family definitely had grit.  At one point it also had four or five sons in the United Nations forces in Korea.  Bob and Roger were the two youngest by far (5 or 6 year gap to next eldest), and were born just 13 or so months apart.

[Mmehdy]

OUTSTANDING...thank you

[MasterChief]

On 2/15/2022 at 12:39 PM, sfcityduck said:

If there is interest, I'll share additional information and my opinions.

Yes, absolutely share. Your heartfelt research honors the memory of both Bob and Roger.

[sfcityduck]

On 2/15/2022 at 2:55 PM, LearnedHand said:

Amazing post!  Thanks for sharing; and yes, definitely interested in the additional info.  If nothing else, I just learned about two American heroes and a family that instilled grit and integrity in their children.    

An interesting part of the Dumas brothers story is what happened about 20 years or so ago.  Newsweek reported in its June 18, 2000 issue:

Quote

 

Bob Dumas's hopes began to soar last year. That's when the White House asked the Chinese government for any information it had on 44 Americans, including Roger Dumas, who were known to be alive and in Chinese custody before the Korean truce was declared. "Roger Dumas remains unaccounted for, and no one's abandoned the search," says Larry Greer, a Pentagon spokesman. "We want to know what the Chinese might know." Beijing says it will allow American researchers to review some of its records and interview prison guards who served in North Korea.

Last week, Bob Dumas got a phone call from the Army Casualty Office. The agency "is preparing a full report on my brother," he said excitedly. "Within 10 days! I just know something's going to give. I can feel it!" With signs of a thaw developing between North and South, Bob Dumas declared: "I've never felt so much hope as I do today."

 

Why might this matter? Because Heritage has relayed that about 20 years ago “Robert” and his family took the comics out of the attic and bagged, boarded, boxed, catalogued, and carefully stored them again. Heritage does not say why, for no apparent reason, "Robert" and "Junies" family would bag, board, box, catalogue and put back into storage comics that had belonged to a man who, under Heritage's telling, had died 50 years earlier.

On the other hand, if about 20 years ago Bob Dumas had reached what he thought was a breakthrough point in his quest to locate and bring Roger home from North Korea, it is plausible that Bob was so energized at the prospect of Roger coming home that he reviewed and freshened up the storage of Roger’s possessions so they would be ready to be given back to him. You would not sell the comics if you thought your brother might come home. And Bob viewed himself as a custodian of at least one other item he viewed Roger as owning - the POW Medal - until Roger came home.  To me Bob and Roger's story better explains the history of the Promise Collection than Heritage's telling.

Edited February 15, 2022 by sfcityduck

[MB1952]

Thanks for posting 

[Bronty]

nice job

[MattTheDuck]

Wonderful story, and a completely plausible possible connection to the comics, as well as a plausible explanation of why they weren't mentioned as part of the story you've turned up, and why they were "freshened up" when they were.  Just like putting fresh sheets on his bed or a coat of paint on his bedroom walls if you thought he might be coming home.

I agree Heritage should make this clear, although it's possible the family simply doesn't want to be publicly identified, so they're fudging some of the info to ensure that doesn't happen.  Obviously, none of us want the family bothered (although I'd like to send them a card thanking them for their extraordinary service and sacrifice for this nation), so perhaps we'll never get the entire story confirmed.  In any event, this is really an extraordinary piece of investigative "journalism" and is very much appreciated by me.

[Buzzetta]

Great read. 

I wish Heritage would be more transparent about the origin of the collection. 

[sfcityduck]

On 2/15/2022 at 3:51 PM, MattTheDuck said:

I agree Heritage should make this clear, although it's possible the family simply doesn't want to be publicly identified, so they're fudging some of the info to ensure that doesn't happen.  Obviously, none of us want the family bothered (although I'd like to send them a card thanking them for their extraordinary service and sacrifice for this nation), so perhaps we'll never get the entire story confirmed.  In any event, this is really an extraordinary piece of investigative "journalism" and is very much appreciated by me.

I'm unaware of any instance where the family of a pedigree OO has been bothered.  Obviously, the pedigree collections have included living OOs whose names are part of the pedigree or whose identities have become known.  To my knowledge none have been bothered by anyone.  Since Heritage possesses and is selling the whole collection, I'm not sure why anyone would bother the OOs extended family.  The opportunity to cut into Heritage's business is long gone for any dealers or collectors who had such a thought.

It is my opinion, really a guess, that Heritage has fudged facts in an effort to obscure the OO.  But, the story told and the markings on the comics themselves give us enough info to, again in IMHO, identify the OO.  Had the family truly wanted to ensure anonymity, they should have given no backstory at all and withheld the "Armand" books from sale.  But, pedigree back stories boost the prices on comics, and maybe they made a compromise regarding what story, or part of the story, they wanted to tell in order to sweeten the appeal of the books.  Heritage and CGC both recognized that the story told added value. Once the decision was made to tell some of the story, it was foreseeable that the full info might come out.  Heritage noted at the outset of the marketing of the collection:

Quote

 

“When their names become known, the collecting community remembers the original fans who have passed their collections down through the decades to be appreciated in the modern day.  Readers and collectors such as Edgar Church, who amassed a collection of nearly 15,000 comics 1937-1957, Davis Crippen, who bought and saved some 13,000 comics 1940-1955, and Lamont Larson, who collected over 1,000 comic books 1936-1940, are all legendary names within the collecting hobby.  The modern collecting community fondly remembers these names and others and discusses them often.  Robert and Junie will be added to this list of legends.”

 - Heritage Auctions Sponsored Post, Bleeding Cool (5/20/2021)

 

 

[szav]

That Bob was possibly comfortable in the limelight and being a publicly known advocate for the cause of PoWs does make me wonder about the assertion that the family or sellers of this collection wanted to remain totally anonymous.   As the subject of documentaries, etc you'd think Bob would have spoken publicly about this promise or his brother's collection, one of the most tangible connections remaining to the brother he was still searching for.  It doesn't totally add up.  Of course just because Bob was possibly comfortable with some notoriety, and as you said butting heads with those in the upper echelons of power, doesn't mean the descendants want it to be known that they just inherited a windfall.

You make a very compelling case, but there's still a lot of mystery here.  It still seems possible that someone pried this collection away from the family of the OO 20ish years ago, and that its some dealer or collector now selling it off, and it's that person that wants anonymity.  

Edited February 16, 2022 by szav
sp

[sfcityduck]

On 2/15/2022 at 4:17 PM, szav said:

That Bob was possibly comfortable in the limelight and being a publicly known advocate for the cause of PoWs does make me wonder about the assertion that the family or sellers of this collection wanted to remain totally anonymous.   As the subject of documentaries, etc you'd think Bob would have spoken publicly about this promise or his brother's collection, one of the most tangible connections remaining to the brother he was still searching for.  It doesn't totally add up.  Of course just because Bob was possibly comfortable with some notoriety, and as you said butting heads with those in the upper echelons of power, doesn't mean the descendants want it to be known that they just inherited a windfall.

You make a very compelling case, but there's still a lot of mystery here.

Bob was a POW/MIA advocate, I can think of no reason he'd talk about comic books - a subject that was not on-message to the only cause he talked publicly about.  I am not privy to the family's lore, and it is conceivable the promise that was the focus of Bob's public life - the one to his parents - was not the only promise he made relating to Roger.  

We do not know that Bob's, or anyone else's, descendants "inherited a windfall."  We don't know where the money is going. 

It is also possible that my opinion is wrong.  Would not be the first time.  Which is why I think Heritage should weigh in.

Edited February 16, 2022 by sfcityduck

[MattTheDuck]

On 2/15/2022 at 4:12 PM, sfcityduck said:

I'm unaware of any instance where the family of a pedigree OO has been bothered.  Obviously, the pedigree collections have included living OOs whose names are part of the pedigree or whose identities have become known.  To my knowledge none have been bothered by anyone.  Since Heritage possesses and is selling the whole collection, I'm not sure why anyone would bother the OOs extended family.  The opportunity to cut into Heritage's business is long gone for any dealers or collectors who had such a thought.

It is my opinion, really a guess, that Heritage has fudged facts in an effort to obscure the OO.  But, the story told and the markings on the comics themselves give us enough info to, again in IMHO, identify the OO.  Had the family truly wanted to ensure anonymity, they should have given no backstory at all and withheld the "Armand" books from sale.  But, pedigree back stories boost the prices on comics, and maybe they made a compromise regarding what story, or part of the story, they wanted to tell in order to sweeten the appeal of the books.  Heritage and CGC both recognized that the story told added value. Once the decision was made to tell some of the story, it was foreseeable that the full info might come out.  Heritage noted at the outset of the marketing of the collection:

 

I was thinking more of "bothered" in the same context that Lottery winners frequently find out they have a lot of long-lost relatives and other scam artists who need money.  I doubt anyone from the comic collecting community would be anything but respectful and fascinated by the story.

[szav]

On 2/15/2022 at 5:24 PM, sfcityduck said:

Bob was a POW/MIA advocate, I can think of no reason he'd talk about comic books - a subject that was not on-message to the only cause he talked publicly about. 

You had said Bob was the subject of documentaries, and I don't know, but what better way to advocate than to tell the deeply personal stories of the people you were advocating for?  We probably wont know, maybe thats not the type of person he was, or it wasn't what people did back then.  Life was more private back then.  But it still strikes me as a bit of a mystery.

Still the way you've set it up for us there are many many facts in favor, and the inconsistencies are not insurmountable.  Appreciate what you've done here.  

[sfcityduck]

On 2/15/2022 at 4:17 PM, szav said:

You make a very compelling case, but there's still a lot of mystery here.  It still seems possible that someone pried this collection away from the family of the OO 20ish years ago, and that its some dealer or collector now selling it off, and it's that person that wants anonymity.  

Heritage representatives have used both the words "consignors" and "family" when talking about who wants anonymity.  It may be that you're right.  The family could have sold to the consignor (probably recently), and when they learned the consignor was planning to resell the collection asked the consignor to make an effort to keep the OO's identity a secret.  The consignor might have chosen to agree to that request, but only up to a point - and decided to tell part of the story.  But that's all complete speculation!  And my read of Heritage's statements is to tend to think such a line of speculation is incorrect.

Edited February 16, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 2/15/2022 at 4:30 PM, MattTheDuck said:

I was thinking more of "bothered" in the same context that Lottery winners frequently find out they have a lot of long-lost relatives and other scam artists who need money.  I doubt anyone from the comic collecting community would be anything but respectful and fascinated by the story.

I'm unaware of anyone bothering pedigree sellers whose identities are known and in some cases part of the pedigree name (Billy Wright, Maggie Thompson, Don Rosa, etc.) when they cash out their comics.   But I agree that concern could be a motivator for a request that an attempt to maintain anonymity be made.  

Edited February 16, 2022 by sfcityduck

[PopKulture]

On 2/15/2022 at 6:12 PM, sfcityduck said:

It is my opinion, really a guess, that Heritage has fudged facts in an effort to obscure the OO. 

This.

If everyone desired anonymity so strongly, as has been claimed, tell no story.

But... that might require leaving money on the table - a laughable notion given both the current climate of "maximizing potential" and the particular auction venue itself.  

[Robot Man]

There is no question that this is a monumental and massive collection of just incredible books. One we might not likely to ever see again. No matter the story. The fact that they just exist is mind-blowing.

But, it is also one of the most, hyped, manipulated and marketed collections of all time. And coming to market in a period of unheard prices in the hobby. An opportunity for Heritage to make an astronomical amount of money with. I have felt all along that was the case including the "story" just to tie it up in a nice neat bow.

Frankly, they have succeeded maybe beyond their wildest dreams. I don't see them offering anything up anything else at this point.

The story of the Dumas brothers is amazing, sad and uplifting all in one. The comics are just a sideline...

Thanks for all your research and posting this. 

[10centcomics]

The driving force behind the creation of a pedigree should never be an auction house or a retailer. They should emerge from the community of enthusiasts, collectors, and historians. And regardless of the source, there needs to be accompanying proof of the provenance or story. Otherwise, the financial incentive for "fudging the facts" or other shenanigans is just too high.