Just Got Back Some Books - VERY Ticked Off 4 4

[Mercury Man]

On 2/22/2022 at 3:03 PM, thehumantorch said:

CGC has never been this bad

My opinion, is that CGC is getting inundated with crapola, that shouldn't warrant a grade and entombing in the first place.  They simply can not supply the man power or quality control to grade this variant or that mid-grade non-key silver age book, that shouldn't be sent off in any sane universe.   Save your money, hassle and time, and go get a 2 mil mylar and acid free backing board and be happy.

[Courageous Cat]

On 2/27/2022 at 5:27 PM, PovertyRow said:

Sadly no matter how I angle it I cannot get a good shot showing the NCB dents on the Moon Knight #1. So here is a full scan of a 6.0. Again, no sign of any light stain on back and scanning it just shows a nice white reverse.

NOTE the lower right line on the red dress is a NCB crease that is reflecting light so it looks color breaking. And a lot of that mess next to "Premier Issue" is from NCB creasing within that dent along with the Color Breaking Creasing. Note that the deep breaking creasing there was not present when I sent the book in.  6.0 is very harsh for this. At least they did WP.

 

thats easily a promise collection 9.8 IMO

[ninanina]

On 2/27/2022 at 4:27 PM, PovertyRow said:

Sadly no matter how I angle it I cannot get a good shot showing the NCB dents on the Moon Knight #1. So here is a full scan of a 6.0. Again, no sign of any light stain on back and scanning it just shows a nice white reverse.

NOTE the lower right line on the red dress is a NCB crease that is reflecting light so it looks color breaking. And a lot of that mess next to "Premier Issue" is from NCB creasing within that dent along with the Color Breaking Creasing. Note that the deep breaking creasing there was not present when I sent the book in.  6.0 is very harsh for this. At least they did WP.

 

Okay, admittedly, whenever we have a grading contest I'm usually just above the middle of the pack. But for whatever it's worth, what I'm seeing is cover wear along the spine (8 tics in total that I can see) and the area between his right arm and cape has another 6 or 7 showing. That plus some loss of cover gloss. And yeah, I've seen some 6.0's that were worse. As a Silver Age, it could have made maybe 7.5...but not an 80's comic.

[PovertyRow]

On 3/2/2022 at 2:49 PM, ninanina said:

Okay, admittedly, whenever we have a grading contest I'm usually just above the middle of the pack. But for whatever it's worth, what I'm seeing is cover wear along the spine (8 tics in total that I can see) and the area between his right arm and cape has another 6 or 7 showing. That plus some loss of cover gloss. And yeah, I've seen some 6.0's that were worse. As a Silver Age, it could have made maybe 7.5...but not an 80's comic.

Thanks ninanina. Your opinion is definitely appreciated. There is a definite advantage having the book in hand. Unfortunately some of the things you are pointing out are scanner glass smoodge, slab scrapes (several of the new slabs had scratches/scrapes) or indents/finger bends/scanner artifacts that are reflecting the light when scanned. I also find it difficult to discern loss of gloss through a slab scan. Gloss is fine here but the micorchamber paper, especially with larger white areas, can make things seem duller than they are. But the key issue is some of these problems were not there when I had them pressed. Or eould have been easily pressed out. FIVE out of seven books appear to have been handled badly enough to cause some of the problems. My sense is these are from the grading end and not the pressing end. 

You touched upon something of interest but unrelated: the concept of 1980s comics vs, say, Silver Age. While many of us were collecting when 1980s comics were being newly published and maintaining a sense of "they are Modern", a 1980 comic is about 42 years old. So put yourself back to 1980. An Action #1 was considered Golden Age back then and, interestingly, would be the exact same age (42 years) in 1980 as this Moon Knight 1 is in 2022. Time goes by faster than we think! 

Edited March 3, 2022 by PovertyRow
calrification

[Sauce Dog]

On 3/2/2022 at 7:03 PM, PovertyRow said:

You touched upon something of interest but unrelated: the concept of 1980s comics vs, say, Silver Age. While many of us were collecting when 1980s comics were being newly published and maintaining a sense of "they are Modern", a 1980 comic is about 42 years old. So put yourself back to 1980. An Action #1 was considered Golden Age back then and, interestingly, would be the exact same age (42 years) in 1980 as this Moon Knight 1 is in 2022. Time goes by faster than we think! 

[PovertyRow]

On 3/4/2022 at 5:33 AM, Sauce Dog said:

Nice math! 84 years since Action 1!

[joeypost]

On 2/28/2022 at 12:20 AM, Courageous Cat said:

thats easily a promise collection 9.8 IMO

I see some light staining/discoloration above "crown gear" and "shock absorber" on the back cover. A new grader may be harsher on something like that compared to a season grader.

[telerites]

On 2/20/2022 at 10:33 PM, PovertyRow said:

bottom staple popped from front cover - this book certainly did not start out with a popped staple, and no sign of one at any angle I can see through the case. Cover and staples were tight with WP. Something happened.

Hi Pov

Sadly, popped staples seem to be an issue that others have reported.  I tried CCS when they first began mainly because I had used Matt when he had Classics Inc. before I joined the boards.  I was always pleased with Matt.  His work and customer service was great.  One try with CCS was enough, my one book that I sent in to test the waters came back with a popped staple.  I know it didn't have a popped staple before I sent it in.  I felt it was a good candidate and I did check it very carefully. 

There really is only option for me when it comes to pressing and if scroll up to the post before mine, that person will always get my business.

[Courageous Cat]

On 3/4/2022 at 2:35 PM, joeypost said:

I see some light staining/discoloration above "crown gear" and "shock absorber" on the back cover. A new grader may be harsher on something like that compared to a season grader.

Joe? Was my sarcasm lost on you? 

[PovertyRow]

On 3/4/2022 at 11:35 AM, joeypost said:

I see some light staining/discoloration above "crown gear" and "shock absorber" on the back cover. A new grader may be harsher on something like that compared to a season grader.

Interesting the only staining in the grader notes is "light foreign substance bottom of back cover" whatever the heck THAT means. CGC is getting far too technical in their jargon! 

[ninanina]

On 3/2/2022 at 6:03 PM, PovertyRow said:

Thanks ninanina. Your opinion is definitely appreciated. There is a definite advantage having the book in hand. Unfortunately some of the things you are pointing out are scanner glass smoodge, slab scrapes (several of the new slabs had scratches/scrapes) or indents/finger bends/scanner artifacts that are reflecting the light when scanned. I also find it difficult to discern loss of gloss through a slab scan. Gloss is fine here but the micorchamber paper, especially with larger white areas, can make things seem duller than they are. But the key issue is some of these problems were not there when I had them pressed. Or eould have been easily pressed out. FIVE out of seven books appear to have been handled badly enough to cause some of the problems. My sense is these are from the grading end and not the pressing end. 

You touched upon something of interest but unrelated: the concept of 1980s comics vs, say, Silver Age. While many of us were collecting when 1980s comics were being newly published and maintaining a sense of "they are Modern", a 1980 comic is about 42 years old. So put yourself back to 1980. An Action #1 was considered Golden Age back then and, interestingly, would be the exact same age (42 years) in 1980 as this Moon Knight 1 is in 2022. Time goes by faster than we think! 

I appreciate the response. 

Based on your description of my imagined defects, I would have to side with you naturally on this. As to why this is happening, I have no idea. If enough of this is going on, there is a  problem and one can only hope if there is a problem, CGC recognizes it and fixes it. Worst thing they can do is not recognize there is a problem and simply move on. I personally have major keys I do need to get graded, but when I read things like this, naturally it makes me nervous...and I can't be the only one. When do I send my FF 1,46 & 48, or my Hulk 181, or Journey Into Mystery 85, or Spider-Man 300 et all. A nervous customer can't be a good thing in the long run for CGC. The hobby needs them, but a developing a bad reputation can't be good.

Also, I've always believed there is a Silver Age curve where comics are not graded as strictly as Copper or Moderns not only due to their age, but also because comics in the last 40 years were looked after better. Again, just my opinion. You are right about the 40 year thing, but a lot more 80's comics were bagged and boarded than in the days of Action 1.

[PovertyRow]

On 3/6/2022 at 2:01 PM, ninanina said:

Also, I've always believed there is a Silver Age curve where comics are not graded as strictly as Copper or Moderns not only due to their age, but also because comics in the last 40 years were looked after better. Again, just my opinion. You are right about the 40 year thing, but a lot more 80's comics were bagged and boarded than in the days of Action 1.

Thanks for the thoughtful response, ninanina! Absolutely no question that the bagging and boarding was far more prevalent than in 1938! I mean, I was buying multiple copies off the rack and bagging/boarding immediately. (wish I still had all those yeesh the prices today!) The bagging/boarding/multi copies  actually started in the mid 60s. I was just addressing the concept of age (as in years, not GA/SA etc). Its funny that I hear young folk (I am 71) saying movies from the 80s and even 90s are "old movies". This makes me smile as *I* tend to think of "older movies" as 60s and 50s and truly "old movies" as before 1940s and earlier. Definitely a generational thing. 

[PovertyRow]

On 3/6/2022 at 2:01 PM, ninanina said:

IAlso, I've always believed there is a Silver Age curve where comics are not graded as strictly as Copper or Moderns not only due to their age, but also because comics in the last 40 years were looked after better. Again, just my opinion. You are right about the 40 year thing, but a lot more 80's comics were bagged and boarded than in the days of Action 1.

Forgot to address the interesting point you brought up regarding the older books getting a more lenient grade.

I absolutely agree with that is what has happened, and that leniency shows even more in GA books. Since joining here in 2002 I have always advocated for no leniency based on a book's age. If a Modern has defects that would make it a, say, 8.5 then a GA or SA should glean the same 8.5 for the same defects. This would result in more accurate grading and also would make people realize that a true 8.5 in a GA is as desirable as a successively higher grade would be in successive ages.  (convoluted much, Pov?)

A grade is supposed to be an accurate, objective description of a book's present state. That should preclude any leniency based on the book's age. 

[Bumble Kitty]

On 2/20/2022 at 8:33 PM, PovertyRow said:

I have confidence in my decades of collecting, studying restoration and paper and even learning in a major restorer's studio.

I had books sent to be cleaned/pressed and then dropped off at CGC. Got 7 back so far from Modern - have to wonder what my older 3 tier Standard will be like. Now none of these are uber books by any means but I expect to get something within the realm of accuracy and clarity. Since these were all numbered sequentially probably the same handlers/graders got them? Not sure how they parcel out the work at CGC.

It is not worth the hassle and the ridiculous wait time to send these back for review. But this has convinced me to seriously re-think this "hobby". It is readily apparent that something is way off now.

Unfortunately, this is happening way too much.  I believe most (if not all) of the defects you are seeing happened at CGC.  A good presser would press these defects out.

I had one of these type of CGC "defects" happen to me.  I also have passed on a few Bronze books that were in "9.6" holders that had several NCB creases.  You might expect this from PGX, but not CGC.  I guess this is what happens when you have tremendous uncontrolled growth.  Boy, I wonder if this is what cancer looks like in the comic hobby.

For me, I did not renew my CGC membership earlier this year.  I still get my books pressed, but I am keeping them raw.  As far as selling books, I am bypassing the auction houses, so I have no need of CGC services at this time.  I have developed personal relationships with a few boardies, so I sell to them.  This is working well for me.

I hope CGC gets their act together quickly.  I would hate for CGC to correct this problem because the hobby loses confidence in their service.  That would be disastrous for everyone.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Bumble Kitty

[Topnotchman]

Its common for Ms. Marvel #'1's to have the lower staple detached, I've pre screened stacks of uncirculated copies "over 100 copies" and the lower staple was popped cleanly on a significant portion of all copies I viewed.  

[PovertyRow]

On 3/7/2022 at 8:25 AM, Topnotchman said:

Its common for Ms. Marvel #'1's to have the lower staple detached, I've pre screened stacks of uncirculated copies "over 100 copies" and the lower staple was popped cleanly on a significant portion of all copies I viewed.  

Nice tidbit of information, Topnotch. Sadly this one was secure when I sent it...as I had written in my initial post: "bottom staple popped from front cover - this book certainly did not start out with a popped staple, and no sign of one at any angle I can see through the case. Cover and staples were tight with WP. Something happened." 

[Bird]

On 3/6/2022 at 5:20 PM, PovertyRow said:

Its funny that I hear young folk (I am 71) saying movies from the 80s and even 90s are "old movies". This makes me smile as *I* tend to think of "older movies" as 60s and 50s and truly "old movies" as before 1940s and earlier. Definitely a generational thing. 

comics, or movies, are like people. A 50 year old person is not really that old; a 65 year old person is old but not ancient or uncommon, and a 90 year old person is definitely old and started to get some rarity. Same with your comics.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Bird

[Spawnfreak]

On 3/4/2022 at 2:35 PM, joeypost said:

I see some light staining/discoloration above "crown gear" and "shock absorber" on the back cover. A new grader may be harsher on something like that compared to a season grader.

How do I use your service?

[Readcomix]

On 3/4/2022 at 3:29 PM, PovertyRow said:

Interesting the only staining in the grader notes is "light foreign substance bottom of back cover" whatever the heck THAT means. CGC is getting far too technical in their jargon! 

The stain is visible in the lower left corner, but it looks run of the mill. Not sure what is meant by “light foreign substance,” which sounds like something is caked on, not embedded in, as with a stain.

[Shannon Buff]

I feel you. My last few books I got from CGC has been grossly underrated imo. Usually when you look at a 4.5, the edges and the spine is jacked up. My avengers 70 which I expected to be a 7.0 especially after getting cleaned and pressed came back as a 4.5. 

You guys decide???