How was the San Francisco show today? 2 2

[ThothAmon]

On 3/6/2022 at 8:09 AM, Bird said:

for you perhaps.

I agree with you Bird. The way I distinguish the “ages” of my collection is by the whiteness of the paper. But to itch his own I always say. 

[New School Fool]

On 3/6/2022 at 2:11 AM, Xatari said:

We prefer “Illuminati”

Don't you find it conflicting to say that you would like the hobby to be more open to new collectors, while at the same time you say you attribute your success in the hobby to being a member of a circle jerk that liken themselves to a closed shadowy boys club?

[Rick2you2]

On 3/5/2022 at 9:52 AM, MAR1979 said:

IMHO it's currently hobby for those who got in earlier or are wealthy.  It's also not hobby that needs to have large influx of new collectors to say strong. Due to the one-of-kind nature even small or tiny number of those getting into the hobby are more than adequate to keep prices a jumpin'. Simply put it's not a hobby that needs a constant flow of new blood a few drops every now and then is more than enough.

I don't want to appear cold, and apologies if I do, but unless you have wealth the time to get into most OCA has long, long since passed and finding other hobby interests are recommended. Or go the sketch route, I know people who only do that and they seem very happy. In fact they appear to be more at peace compared to pretty much any art collector I know including myself.

Not at all. What you have to do is ignore the hype about what I consider absurd pricing for certain art and focus on what is really good yet affordable. There are 10’s of thousands of modern pages which are excellent. There are older backwaters of Silver and Bronze Age art that are relatively cheap, and there are other subjects besides superheroes, like war stories, that are great. 

Start by looking at a typical page. If a splash, is the subject strong and well centered? Does the activity justify the splash at all? Are the characters accurately drawn in realistic poses (unless it is the type of art where realism is out the window). Do the secondary activities relate well to the center? Does the style match the content? For example, I like supernatural art to have more of an impressionistic feel than a biologically accurate one. If you have a panel page, are the panels logically arranged? Did the artist do something offbeat or cool? If so, the odds are it is a good page. Then it comes down to taste.

Pricing, on the other hand, is heavily influenced by nostalgia and artist recognition. I also have to tell you that all artists have bad days. And many artists get assignments which I suspect are done half-heartedly to earn a paycheck. If you pay attention, weed them out.

Those who got in early bought the good stuff, and bad, just as you can do now with new stuff or backwaters (with some exceptions). A long time ago, I bought a Neal Adams cover for $200, and wish I had bought the other one for sale. But so what? Now I buy new stuff at the inflation-adjusted equivalent, and it still makes me happy.  Just don’t get wrapped up in the money game of investors, dealers and shills, which can be depressing. And the next time you see someone buying a black-costumed Spider-man page for $3,000,000, just laugh your off. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Rick2you2

[FoggyNelson]

On 3/6/2022 at 9:08 AM, Rick2you2 said:

Not at all. What you have to do is ignore the hype about what I consider absurd pricing for certain art and focus on what is really good yet affordable. There are 10’s of thousands of modern pages which are excellent. There are older backwaters of Silver and Bronze Age art that are relatively cheap, and there are other subjects besides superheroes, like war stories, that are great. 

Start by looking at a typical page. If a splash, is the subject strong and well centered? Does the activity justify the splash at all? Are the characters accurately drawn in realistic poses (unless it is the type of art where realism is out the window). Do the secondary activities relate well to the center? Does the style match the content? For example, I like supernatural art to have more of an impressionistic feel than a biologically accurate one. If you have a panel page, are the panels logically arranged? Did the artist do something offbeat or cool? If so, the odds are it is a good page. Then it comes down to taste.

Pricing, on the other hand, is heavily influenced by nostalgia and artist recognition. I also have to tell you that all artists have bad days. And many artists get assignments which I suspect are done half-heartedly to earn a paycheck. If you pay attention, weed them out.

Those who got in early bought the good stuff, and bad, just as you can do now with new stuff or backwaters (with some exceptions). I long time ago, I bought a Neal Adams cover for $200, and wish I had bought the other one for sale. But so what? Now I buy new stuff at the inflation-adjusted equivalent, and it still makes me happy.  Just don’t get wrapped up in the money game of investors, dealers and shills, which can be depressing. And the next time you see someone buying a black-costumed Spider-man page for $3,000,000, just laugh your off. 

Excellent advice 👍‼️🎶

[Xatari]

On 3/6/2022 at 6:07 AM, Shin-Kaiser said:

Don't you find it conflicting to say that you would like the hobby to be more open to new collectors, while at the same time you say you attribute your success in the hobby to being a member of a circle jerk that liken themselves to a closed shadowy boys club?

No conflict at all. Never once have we been a closed group and have regularly put it out there to be open and welcoming. You can verify this in both interviews I’ve done for CAF in which I’ve blatantly discussed pieces we have purchased with the help of working together and invited any viewer to reach out if they’d like to be a part of a group. 

Clearly my previous comment was tongue in cheek in the same way we would never stand in a circle as we prefer the rhombus.  Rhombus jerk, my friend.

[MAR1979]

On 3/6/2022 at 4:39 AM, Shin-Kaiser said:

If you want to collect mainstream comic art from the 90s and older - then yes you're correct, that ship has sailed for newer collectors.

If you shift your focus to newer or more obscure stuff, then the hobby becomes a lot more accessible.

Not sure most see that as a selling point?  The average collector has lower interest in obscure stuff.  But yea those who enjoy less popular stuff or pages by artists with very low limited following can live the "high life". Those who collect what they like never lose as the old saying goes.

Edited March 6, 2022 by MAR1979

[Bird]

On 3/6/2022 at 10:36 AM, Xatari said:

Rhombus jerk, my friend

someone's double dipping, working the angles

[Xatari]

Always work the angles.

[MAR1979]

On 3/6/2022 at 9:08 AM, Rick2you2 said:

. And the next time you see someone buying a black-costumed Spider-man page for $3,000,000, just laugh your off. 

What gets me on that is by the point in time SW8 was issued and that page appeared there were already a couple of hundred pages of Spider-Man in the black costume already published. Some of which in books that by that time had been on-sale for nearly 3/4's of a year. I'd bet at least some of the folks bidding thought it was the first actual page in the black. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by MAR1979

[New School Fool]

On 3/6/2022 at 3:36 PM, Xatari said:

Clearly my previous comment was tongue in cheek in the same way we would never stand in a circle as we prefer the rhombus.  Rhombus jerk, my friend.

Thanks for the clarification - sorry - didn't mean to break your balls.

 

On 3/6/2022 at 3:45 PM, MAR1979 said:

Not sure most see that as a selling point?  The average collector has lower interest in obscure stuff.  But yea those who rnjoy less popular stuff by artist with very low limited following can life the "high life". Those who collect what they like never lose as the old saying goes.

Yes, I think this is what I was trying to say. Not 'obscure' but certainly if you're after stuff that is less popular to the mainstream, then you're spoilt for choice!

[MAR1979]

On 3/6/2022 at 10:52 AM, Shin-Kaiser said:

Thanks for the clarification - sorry - didn't mean to break your balls.

 

Yes, I think this is what I was trying to say. Not 'obscure' but certainly if you're after stuff that is less popular to the mainstream, then you're spoilt for choice!

How about Obscure stuff OR Obscure artist. If it's neither then price won't be "low", if it's both then prices agreed can be reasonable. The folks I see trying to get into art however want well known characters by more well known artists. Which bring us back to in 2022 unless they are wealthy the boat has sailed.

It used to be lower priced pages were a dealer's bread and butter sort of like slot machines in casinos. However in current day there are folks whose tables have nearly nothing under 4 figures, in Albert's case very little under 5 figures. Anthony still follows the old model to a great degree and Burkey as well. Still they don't need to...The reason i say that is when you have war chests with over 100 MILLION (a very conservative Number) in art you really don't need to sell pages that costs a few hundred dollars unless you simply enjoy the game. Haggling is almost like a sport

 

It's way off-topic but you know how Fortune and Forbes has their annual lists... What about a Comic Art Top 15 with estimated worth in art holdings? I'm sure it would go over like a lead balloon, but seeing rough estimates in digital ink might be an eye opener for many. #You can't kill an idea

Edited March 6, 2022 by MAR1979

[cbaileypacker]

On 3/5/2022 at 8:05 AM, Xatari said:

Man, I strongly disagree, having jumped into the hobby in the last two years. There were a TON of value pieces that really paid off and allowed my to parlay into bigger pieces. You just have to do two things…

1. Read books after the year 2000.

2. Do research. 

It’s not the easiest hobby by any means due to the points you made, but there is a lot of fun and value out there. I want to see more people enjoy it rather than keep it small. 

This 100%.  The key to starting a great collection is to READ MODERN COMIC BOOKS.  Here’s the blueprint:

1) Go to your comic shop on Wednesday.

2) Buy books you like or want to try  from the week.  

3) Read the books, if you like the art or story and want to own a page cover, contact the artist or rep and find that art.

 

Most modern artist are either easily found direct online, or have reps that schedule public drops to attend weekly.
Yes, some are digital, but I would say 70% of modern art is still on paper, and drawing artist back to paper that know they profit more by doing so.

Even if doing this in the last year, you could have key art from instant modern classics like Venom, Immortal Hulk, Thor, Swamp Thing, Batman, X-Men, Daredevil, Avengers, or any other book you enjoyed reading personally.

Comics, speculation, graded books, original art, all still starts with the read. Buy the new books READ THEM and enjoy them, then tack down the older art as your modern art matures.

key to getting into modern art is to go back to the basics and READ THE BOOKS. Some of the best stories ever are being published right now! 🍻🍻

also, Rhombus jerks help, if you know some nice peeps to jerk with. 😎

 

[Xatari]

If someone has $100MM in art and are continuing to deal, it’s most likely for love of the game I would hope. 
 

My experience at the SF show was with several would-be new collectors who were looking for McSpidey pages, Byrne X-Men, Kirby FF, or Ditko Spidey. They were just looking for some reasonable pieces with which they could get their feet wet and enjoy. 
 

This show didn’t really offer that, but I do think there is a void their a rep in the future could fill.  Just like new collectors wouldn’t have access to some of the more iconic and historic pieces, perhaps a newer dealer or rep may not either. Could be a win for both.

Also, there have been some really incredible new series out which new readers are on top of and would have done well.  My big point is I think the general mass of the hobby is stuck in 1960-1990 in terms of taste, but there are new entrants who may not be and will hopefully begin to find a home as we welcome them with open arms  

 

[Xatari]

On 3/6/2022 at 8:10 AM, cbaileypacker said:

This 100%.  The key to starting a great collection is to READ MODERN COMIC BOOKS.  Here’s the blueprint:

1) Go to your comic shop on Wednesday.

2) Buy books you like or want to try  from the week.  

3) Read the books, if you like the art or story and want to own a page cover, contact the artist or rep and find that art.

 

Most modern artist are either easily found direct online, or have reps that schedule public drops to attend weekly.
Yes, some are digital, but I would say 70% of modern art is still on paper, and drawing artist back to paper that know they profit more by doing so.

Even if doing this in the last year, you could have key art from instant modern classics like Venom, Immortal Hulk, Thor, Swamp Thing, Batman, X-Men, Daredevil, Avengers, or any other book you enjoyed reading personally.

Comics, speculation, graded books, original art, all still starts with the read. Buy the new books READ THEM and enjoy them, then tack down the older art as your modern art matures.

key to getting into modern art is to go back to the basics and READ THE BOOKS. Some of the best stories ever are being published right now! 🍻🍻

also, Rhombus jerks help, if you know some nice peeps to jerk with. 😎

 

Love this response. 💯 agree. 

[MAR1979]

On 3/6/2022 at 11:15 AM, Xatari said:

Love this response. 💯 agree. 

Those willing to do do that and have hustle talent will do well. But those are folks who are likley to succeed in whatever they do. Those folks are outliers.

Edited March 6, 2022 by MAR1979

[exitmusicblue]

Glad to see some of my previous thoughts echoed.  Btw Heritage does a yearly wrapup spanning its numerous collectibles categories.

This past year, OA was placed prominently within the first two pages. Works by Renoir and Rodin that you'd expect to find in museums paled in comparison results-wise.

Ours has become a big league hobby for sure.  Gumption and luck and resources can cover up for each other to an extent.  If you don't have one of these, you want at least two of the others ideally, or tons of one.

Edited March 6, 2022 by exitmusicblue

[New School Fool]

On 3/6/2022 at 4:20 PM, MAR1979 said:

Those willing to do do that and have hustle talent will do well. But those are folks who  are likley to succeed in what ever they do. Those folks are outliers.

I disagree - I would say those folks are collectors!

To me there's a difference in being a collector of comic art (i.e. doing the process outlined by @Xatari and @cbaileypacker), to -  Just wanting to own a piece by McFarlane or Jim Lee in todays market.

I feel you would like to achieve the latter, and are becoming discouraged by how difficult actually achieving that is. I'm pretty sure a lot of the early buyers of comic art didn't realise how much they would actually be worth today.

[Rick2you2]

On 3/6/2022 at 11:14 AM, Xatari said:

 

My experience at the SF show was with several would-be new collectors who were looking for McSpidey pages, Byrne X-Men, Kirby FF, or Ditko Spidey. They were just looking for some reasonable pieces with which they could get their feet wet and enjoy. 

 

 

Which is the fault of the would-be new collectors, for not looking elsewhere, or perhaps not knowing where to look.

Next time, point them in the right direction. Lot's of good Swamp Thing coming out at reasonable prices. They will (or should) thank you for it. 

[Rick2you2]

On 3/6/2022 at 11:32 AM, Shin-Kaiser said:

To me there's a difference in being a collector of comic art (i.e. doing the process outlined by @Xatari and @cbaileypacker), to -  Just wanting to own a piece by McFarlane or Jim Lee in todays market.

I want an original Piet Mondrian. Can you find a dealer who will sell me one for less than a grand? It's just a bunch of lines and boxes with a little color here and there.

See my point?

[exitmusicblue]

On 3/6/2022 at 8:33 AM, Rick2you2 said:

Which is the fault of the would-be new collectors, for not looking elsewhere, or perhaps not knowing where to look.

Next time, point them in the right direction. Lot's of good Swamp Thing coming out at reasonable prices. They will (or should) thank you for it. 

No one's "fault," I dare say.  Best case outcomes I've seen are where folks in dipping their toes -- whether they acquire or not -- start with the big names they know of, then as they fall in love with the hobby (vs. just thinking about the names/$$/etc.), expand their horizons.