Holy Freakin' Cow - Asking prices on feeBay 9 9

[F For Fake]

On 5/12/2022 at 3:09 PM, Beastfeast said:

We have an almost identical relationship with the hobby (and I bet a lot of people on these boards are similar) but by most accounts of what makes someone a "flipper", we'd be in that category.  I've 100% bought out a book at an LCS on Wednesday because I knew I could make fast cash. I  bought a book I wanted for my PC with that money but I don't see a functional difference between that and using the money to pad a savings account, pay bills, or pay for a meal.  The end goal is that I sold something I didn't care about and now have money at the expense of the "average" collector.  Just because I love comics doesn't make what I did any more or less crappy to some person who just wanted that particular comic to read.  

I see dealers in much the same way: Their passion for the hobby is irrelevant to the fact that it's their business to buy low, sell high, and flip stuff to people.  If they've never read a comic in their lives or are an encyclopedia doesn't mean much except in the way that I'd give one my money faster than I'd give the other.  

Part of this is probably trying to justify bad personal behavior but the other part is it's hard to engage with people when everyone has their own set of working definitions of phrases.  At some point, they stop having any meaning and act as a catch-all for things they don't like.  It's how the phrase "hipster" went from describing a very particular type of person to mean anything and everything that's different to the person saying it.  

I definitely can't argue with any of that. Like I said, I think the definition is going to vary gradually for each person, so it'll be impossible to ever nail it down. So I can totally agree that we are all, to some extent, "flippers". I guess that's why I try to not pass judgment on anyone for doing it, because I don't want to hate myself (any more than I already do!)

I try to be fair with everyone I deal with. That being said, I've definitely bought things that were grossly underpriced specifically because I knew I could resell them. Is that gross? I don't know, maybe. I just try to be honest, and accept a good deal when I find it. I hopefully have more good karma than bad headed my way, but I guess any form of buying and selling is going to have some morally murky areas.

[Axe Elf]

I would see the label "flipper" in this context the same as I would in the real estate context.  Sure, people buy houses all the time, live in them for a while, maybe improve the properties over time, and eventually sell them, hopefully at a profit.  But that's more of an investment than a flip.

The flippers are the ones who buy houses they will never live in, fix them up and sell them over the course of a couple of months, and move on to the next.  They're not interested in the house as anything other than a commodity to buy and sell at a profit.

And so it is with comics or most any valuable collectibles; you have the people who actually enjoy the collectibles, keep them for a while and display them, before maybe one day selling at a profit--and then you have people who only view the collectible as a commodity to be bought low and then sold again right away at a profit.  Those are the flippers.  And I agree, other than some purist superiority complex, there should be no moral judgment; it's just a different approach.  But I think it's a legitimate distinction, between those for whom profit is a fringe benefit, and those for whom profit is the sole reason to buy and sell comics.

[path4play]

feeBay seems to have monkeyed with its search again.

All my saved searches are sending emails that are not golden age.

And when I try to use the Advance, "number of bids from" feature it seems to no longer work?

Why do they have to screw with things every six months or so?

 

 

[squidmo2000]

[wormboy]

On 4/3/2022 at 6:58 PM, dupont2005 said:

I used to think it didn’t but I can’t figure why fees are so high either 

Was it an international sale? They charge an extra fee for international.

They also charge fees on shipping.

[Beastfeast]

On 5/12/2022 at 8:21 PM, wormboy said:

 

They also charge fees on shipping.

When did that change?  Or was it always like that?  I remember the days of people selling $.99 cent items but $25 shipping and I assumed that was to get around fees.  

[wormboy]

On 5/12/2022 at 5:26 PM, Beastfeast said:

When did that change?  Or was it always like that?  I remember the days of people selling $.99 cent items but $25 shipping and I assumed that was to get around fees.  

Not sure, but at least a year.

I just sold an item for $200 plus $20 shipping.

Standard fee was 12.9% = $28.38 ($220 x 12.9%)

Because it was an international sale, there was an additional 1.65% fee of $3.63 ($220 x 1.65%)

Plus the fixed .30 final value fee per item.

[Axe Elf]

On 5/12/2022 at 7:36 PM, wormboy said:

I just sold an item for $200 plus $20 shipping.

Standard fee was 12.9% = $28.38 ($220 x 12.9%)

Because it was an international sale, there was an additional 1.65% fee of $3.63 ($220 x 1.65%)

Plus the fixed .30 final value fee per item.

That just seems insane to me, that sellers give basically one-sixth of their proceeds to da'Bay, right off the top.  I don't see how anyone ever makes any money, other than by landing a fish on an overpriced hook every once in a while.

[Beastfeast]

On 5/12/2022 at 9:00 PM, Axe Elf said:

That just seems insane to me, that sellers give basically one-sixth of their proceeds to da'Bay, right off the top.  I don't see how anyone ever makes any money, other than by landing a fish on an overpriced hook every once in a while.

It's a weird time in selling comics where they are just SO many $20-$50 books to be found in $1 bins and collections that it's hard to not make money, if you have the time.  The fees suck but there's no where else where as many eyes land on your books.  

[skypinkblu]

On 5/12/2022 at 8:26 PM, Beastfeast said:

When did that change?  Or was it always like that?  I remember the days of people selling $.99 cent items but $25 shipping and I assumed that was to get around fees.  

Years ago

[Axe Elf]

On 5/12/2022 at 8:02 PM, Beastfeast said:

It's a weird time in selling comics where they are just SO many $20-$50 books to be found in $1 bins and collections that it's hard to not make money, if you have the time.  The fees suck but there's no where else where as many eyes land on your books.  

I suppose, if you can always operate with a 2000% to 5000% profit margin, da'Bay taking a sixth probably doesn't seem like much.

Now if there was only a system to teach me how to take $1 comics and turn them into $50 comics...

[Beastfeast]

On 5/12/2022 at 9:09 PM, Axe Elf said:

I suppose, if you can always operate with a 2000% to 5000% profit margin, da'Bay taking a sixth probably doesn't seem like much.

Now if there was only a system to teach me how to take $1 comics and turn them into $50 comics...

[wormboy]

On 5/12/2022 at 6:00 PM, Axe Elf said:

That just seems insane to me, that sellers give basically one-sixth of their proceeds to da'Bay, right off the top.  I don't see how anyone ever makes any money, other than by landing a fish on an overpriced hook every once in a while.

If you compare it to having a retail space, which you would probably need to get the same traffic, it’s much cheaper. No rent, insurance, power bill, trash bill, etc.

That said, the fees are painful.

[dupont2005]

On 5/12/2022 at 5:21 PM, wormboy said:

Was it an international sale? They charge an extra fee for international.

They also charge fees on shipping.

I don’t do international sales 

[Bookery]

On 5/12/2022 at 2:31 PM, Beastfeast said:

Off topic but can we get some working definitions for the phrases used here.  Like, what is a "flipper"?  Isn't that literally anyone who sells higher than they bought?  Aren't all dealers flippers?  Do you have to constantly sell at a loss to NOT be a flipper? Or is it only people that buy out a book you wanted and now it's more expensive?  

There's this constant dismissal and dislike for "flippers" yet the secondary market wouldn't exist without them.  I've even heard LCS owners say things like, "The flippers try to score $1 books and sell them for more on Ebay."  Like, what?  You buy collections for pennies on the dollar and sell them for more.  What is the difference?  

Actually, I may tease or make a joke (like above), but a large part of my business is dependent on "flippers".  Flipper is what used to be known in the rare book market as a "book scout".  Before eBay, there were people who made a profession out of seeking out books in flea markets, small shops, estates, etc., and then immediately bringing them to a large dealer for quick re-sale.  The good ones put a huge amount of work and effort into it.  They knew which dealers would pay the most for which books, etc., and would specifically look for books for them.  Some would even keep and track want-lists.  When eBay came along, most of these folks disappeared and sold for themselves on the internet.

Flippers are essentially comic book scouts who may sell directly on eBay or may sell to dealers depending upon how fast they want to move merchandise or how much hassle they want to put into it.  The good ones know as much (if not more) than most dealers, as the trick is often to keep up on the hottest trends.  I spend tens of thousands of dollars with flippers every year, and I also sell thousands more to flippers who have specific clients.  I don't have time to hit all of these trade shows, or to follow-up every Craigslist posting... so I pay a premium for the work and effort to those that do.  I even have folks that will buy a book out of my discount basement for $1 and sell it back to me the next day for $5 because it just became hot overnight.  And I'm good with that... would rather buy a book back for $5 that's now worth $10, then to sell it for $1 and never see it again.

There is a difference between dealers and flippers, though long-term flippers have sometimes moved into dealer status.  A dealer offers a service, whether at a shop or a show.  I maintain inventory, help people locate what they need, provide a comfortable atmosphere and shopping experience, develop long-term relationships.  My stock may include items that have sat in inventory for years, waiting for the right collector seeking out an esoteric item.  For a flipper's business model to work, they need to "flip" items quickly.  As a dealer, I pay property tax, income taxes, pay employees, etc., which has an impact on the community I'm in.  Flippers may or may not be "on the grid", depending upon the size of their operation.  Most dealers / businesses involve more than one staffer, partner, employee, etc.  Most flippers work solo.  

People disparage dealers about as much as they do flippers, and often say with scorn how dealers "make a profit" (though it's okay for them to make a "profit" at their occupation), as if selling comics doesn't involve massive amounts of work, cost, customer relations, and qualities of service just like any business.  It is the same with flippers... you'd be surprised at the amount of work, travel, and cost some of these folks put into it.

[darkstar]

On 4/3/2022 at 9:05 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

$310 × .87 the usual fee of 13% between ebay and the bank or something, comes close at $283. Rough rough estimate as PayPal no longer takes a cut, then minus 50$ for shipping. So that's close to somehow finding the issue on your own?

I'd still call.

I always like to surmise before calling to help convince customer service but idk, idk how it makes sense in any situation 

 

 

On 4/3/2022 at 9:07 PM, dupont2005 said:

I think eBay is double dipping with managed payments as well. All my auctions have been like this, or at least the big ones are the ones I notice. Maybe I should call or review my statements 

You aren't paying 13% fees on the (item price + shipping/handling). eBay takes 13% fees on the (item price + shipping/handling + sales tax). Then you are paying $0.30 for the transaction fee plus the cost of postage is also being deducted from your balance as well if you buy it through eBay. 

 

[Sweet Lou 14]

On 5/13/2022 at 8:39 AM, Bookery said:

Actually, I may tease or make a joke (like above), but a large part of my business is dependent on "flippers".  Flipper is what used to be known in the rare book market as a "book scout".  Before eBay, there were people who made a profession out of seeking out books in flea markets, small shops, estates, etc., and then immediately bringing them to a large dealer for quick re-sale.  The good ones put a huge amount of work and effort into it.  They knew which dealers would pay the most for which books, etc., and would specifically look for books for them.  Some would even keep and track want-lists.  When eBay came along, most of these folks disappeared and sold for themselves on the internet.

Flippers are essentially comic book scouts who may sell directly on eBay or may sell to dealers depending upon how fast they want to move merchandise or how much hassle they want to put into it.  The good ones know as much (if not more) than most dealers, as the trick is often to keep up on the hottest trends.  I spend tens of thousands of dollars with flippers every year, and I also sell thousands more to flippers who have specific clients.  I don't have time to hit all of these trade shows, or to follow-up every Craigslist posting... so I pay a premium for the work and effort to those that do.  I even have folks that will buy a book out of my discount basement for $1 and sell it back to me the next day for $5 because it just became hot overnight.  And I'm good with that... would rather buy a book back for $5 that's now worth $10, then to sell it for $1 and never see it again.

There is a difference between dealers and flippers, though long-term flippers have sometimes moved into dealer status.  A dealer offers a service, whether at a shop or a show.  I maintain inventory, help people locate what they need, provide a comfortable atmosphere and shopping experience, develop long-term relationships.  My stock may include items that have sat in inventory for years, waiting for the right collector seeking out an esoteric item.  For a flipper's business model to work, they need to "flip" items quickly.  As a dealer, I pay property tax, income taxes, pay employees, etc., which has an impact on the community I'm in.  Flippers may or may not be "on the grid", depending upon the size of their operation.  Most dealers / businesses involve more than one staffer, partner, employee, etc.  Most flippers work solo.  

People disparage dealers about as much as they do flippers, and often say with scorn how dealers "make a profit" (though it's okay for them to make a "profit" at their occupation), as if selling comics doesn't involve massive amounts of work, cost, customer relations, and qualities of service just like any business.  It is the same with flippers... you'd be surprised at the amount of work, travel, and cost some of these folks put into it.

Thanks for this post.

Taking the analogy you drew in the first paragraph, when I think about about flea market and estate finds, what I'm imagining is someone knowledgeable who buys raw books and then gets them graded.  I'm guessing most of us would agree that this kind of "flipper" is doing a service to the broader collecting community by essentially bringing new inventory to the market.  Collectors who don't have the time or opportunity to go searching like that are glad someone is doing this and making those discoveries -- plus, let's face it, they are increasing supply and perhaps putting some downward pressure on prices.

But when other people talk about "flippers" I think they're referring to people who identify books for which demand may exceed supply, go after them aggressively (thereby driving up prices), and then turn right around and list those books at a substantial markup from what they paid (attempting to drive up prices even further).  I won't name names, but there are several eBay dealers where the patterns are glaringly obvious -- you can see them pay 50% over what you might consider FMV on a book, and list it a couple of days or weeks later for 50% above that already inflated number.

It is what it is, but I know I find it really frustrating trying to buy (or bid) in a market where this behavior is so rampant.

[Rob]

On 5/12/2022 at 6:00 PM, Axe Elf said:

That just seems insane to me, that sellers give basically one-sixth of their proceeds to da'Bay, right off the top.  I don't see how anyone ever makes any money, other than by landing a fish on an overpriced hook every once in a while.

It seems insane to me that LCS's pay for rent, plus employee salaries, plus utilities that comes right off the top.  Whereas I can reach many more people than my LCS gets in foot traffic, for just 15% of what sells.  Seems economical to me.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 5/13/2022 at 7:01 PM, Rob said:

It seems insane to me that LCS's pay for rent, plus employee salaries, plus utilities that comes right off the top.  Whereas I can reach many more people than my LCS gets in foot traffic, for just 15% of what sells.  Seems economical to me.

The value of a brick and mortar store comes from all the collections that are brought to you. 

[Axe Elf]

So it's not so much that books are becoming more valuable, it's just that every time one is sold, it has to be sold for 20% more than the last time it was sold, just to pay for the cost of selling it (for the book to retain the same relative value, anyway).  The whole thing just kind of builds on itself--and then y'all wonder why prices are skyrocketing.  And all those increasing margins are flowing into the auction houses' and da'Bay's wallets.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Axe Elf