Stan's signature. 2 2

[Laszlo the Mudjar]

If I'm honest I have never been a fan of comics signed on the cover, but to be even more honest I'm a bit put off by how many Stan Lee signed books are out there.  I feel like the guy spent his last 20 years signing away, and that, to me, cheapens it.  Don't get me wrong I think Stan Lee was a comic book genius, love his work, and think the world is better for it.  I just think the guy went a little crazy handing out signatures.  Anyways, that's just one old dude's thoughts so don't nobody get their panties in a wad please.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Quote

None of these choices adequately expresses my opinion on the matter.

Because:

Quote

I agree a Stan Lee signature adds value...

...to books he worked on.

[D2]

I feel like Stan Lee is the Godfather of Marvel comics.

Yes, he was disliked and sometimes even hated by nearly all of his collaborators.

Yes, it could be seen as though he was a thief, stealing the credit and creativity of everything he worked on.

Yes, his signature is a bit of a bloated pig with value to books.

BUT

He was a true ambassador of the comic medium, and regardless of how far in you want to believe the arguments and perspective of others, Stan Lee was integral to Marvel Comics today.

 

I also believe that Stan Lee was abused and taken advantage of in his later years which is why so many of his signatures float around here. I prefer having a Stan Lee sig on my books. 
Stan Lee cared about kids and he cared about people. I have watched a lot of interviews with him over the years as well and I think there are two sides to every story when it comes to all of the points I listed above.

Stan Lee signatures should be on every Marvel comic book.

[FoggyNelson]

Stan sig is cool👏

[World Devourer]

On 3/31/2022 at 8:11 AM, D2 said:

I

Yes, he was disliked and sometimes even hated by nearly all of his collaborators.

Yes, it could be seen as though he was a thief, stealing the credit and creativity of everything he worked on.

 

I've been told this several times, and read interviews with the greats who say as much. Stan Lee was all about Stan Lee, and couldn't stand the fact that some truly great writers came later and produced stories that trumped anything he ever did (eg. Starlin). Lee excelled at self-promotion, which is why he was such a huge part of popular culture. His ethics and integrity, however, were another matter...

[SpineTic]

On 3/31/2023 at 10:04 AM, World Devourer said:

I've been told this several times, and read interviews with the greats who say as much. Stan Lee was all about Stan Lee, and couldn't stand the fact that some truly great writers came later and produced stories that trumped anything he ever did (eg. Starlin). Lee excelled at self-promotion, which is why he was such a huge part of popular culture. His ethics and integrity, however, were another matter...

[Doctor Obscure]

The Stan debate is another subject that is independent on the point of this poll.

So, one of the options should have been "I feel a Stan Lee signature does NOT add value", which would have been my option.

Before I explain my opinion, I should state of course it has value- for the collector that wants it. It certainly might help sell a book more than without it.

But in terms of investment value, which I presume is what the pollster means- no. For a simple reason- there's a glut of Stan Lee signatures, especially on characters he literally had nothing to do with. A glut. Stan signed for hours at conventions, on QVC and so forth- they aren't rare, they're not scarce. Therefore, they have less value.

[Doctor Obscure]

On 3/31/2023 at 10:04 AM, World Devourer said:

I've been told this several times, and read interviews with the greats who say as much. Stan Lee was all about Stan Lee, and couldn't stand the fact that some truly great writers came later and produced stories that trumped anything he ever did (eg. Starlin). Lee excelled at self-promotion, which is why he was such a huge part of popular culture. His ethics and integrity, however, were another matter...

Don't rely on what people tell you. Do the research. It's better.

Read every Stan Lee interview that exists, seriously. Read interviews with people who worked with him both pre and post Marvel. It will take years but as you absorb the entire context and scope of his life, career and output, you'll see.... that factually, with no bias, that the Stan myth just doesn't hold up. It's a necessary myth for fans who need Stan as the genial geek ambassador but really, the evidence for Stan is remarkably slim and the evidence for him getting the credit he did as a result of the corporate buyers of Marvel at the time Martin Goodman selling it needing to tie up freelancer's claims is much higher and much easier to see. Stan has more documented cases of declaring his lack of interest in comics, passion for comics, and reading comics than he has documented cases of him declaring that he even likes comics. He explained dozens of times how he tried to get out of comics. And once he could use comics as a chance to go to L.A., he did. Stan Lee is a myth. Being an admittedly witty and affable Editor and decent dialogue writer on finished fully drawn stories does not constitute what Stan gets.

But again. Those grown men NEED Stan. It's hard to let go of nostalgia and sentimental value, honestly. I have a hard time too, to be honest.

[World Devourer]

On 4/2/2023 at 3:36 PM, Doctor Obscure said:

Don't rely on what people tell you. Do the research. It's better.

Read every Stan Lee interview that exists, seriously. Read interviews with people who worked with him both pre and post Marvel. It will take years but as you absorb the entire context and scope of his life, career and output, you'll see.... that factually, with no bias, that the Stan myth just doesn't hold up. It's a necessary myth for fans who need Stan as the genial geek ambassador but really, the evidence for Stan is remarkably slim and the evidence for him getting the credit he did as a result of the corporate buyers of Marvel at the time Martin Goodman selling it needing to tie up freelancer's claims is much higher and much easier to see. Stan has more documented cases of declaring his lack of interest in comics, passion for comics, and reading comics than he has documented cases of him declaring that he even likes comics. He explained dozens of times how he tried to get out of comics. And once he could use comics as a chance to go to L.A., he did. Stan Lee is a myth. Being an admittedly witty and affable Editor and decent dialogue writer on finished fully drawn stories does not constitute what Stan gets.

But again. Those grown men NEED Stan. It's hard to let go of nostalgia and sentimental value, honestly. I have a hard time too, to be honest.

Oh, I've done the research. I know he had feet of clay. I know most of his writing was atrocious. That said, many other people co-collaborated to make Marvel what it was and leave many of us with happy childhood memories.

 

[Grendel72]

On 4/4/2023 at 3:13 PM, World Devourer said:

 I know most of his writing was atrocious. 

 

Really now. ASM 33, 50. FF 51 are classics. This is just at the top of my head. If you're comparing him to Dickens or Joyce then maybe so. He definitely wasn't atrocious by any measure. 

[D2]

On 4/2/2023 at 1:32 AM, Doctor Obscure said:

The Stan debate is another subject that is independent on the point of this poll.

So, one of the options should have been "I feel a Stan Lee signature does NOT add value", which would have been my option.

Before I explain my opinion, I should state of course it has value- for the collector that wants it. It certainly might help sell a book more than without it.

But in terms of investment value, which I presume is what the pollster means- no. For a simple reason- there's a glut of Stan Lee signatures, especially on characters he literally had nothing to do with. A glut. Stan signed for hours at conventions, on QVC and so forth- they aren't rare, they're not scarce. Therefore, they have less value.

I would bring up this side of the argument...

so yes, as a blanket statement, I think the Stan Lee signature, as a signature is not rare, therefore, not essentially 'valuable', with it being on any random thing. Compared to an Abraham Lincoln's signature, or a William Shakespeare, where if you found these signed on the back of a toilet, you could still fetch a million dollars.

That being said, I think a Stan Lee signature on relevant products, is essential, for signature collectors, and more rare than you might think.

Stan Lee did sign everything under the sun, but from what I see in the market, his signature fell under a few categories

• Toys (Funko Pops, Lego)
• Movie Merch (Iron Man Helmet, Captain America Shield, Movie Posters)
• Photographs (of himself and/or with fans)
• Clothing

and then you have Comic Books, which also have soooo many subcategories of things he signed

• CGC verified
• raw, unverified
• raw, with certificates, not recognized by CGC
• other

Now the only real valuable Stan Lee signatures are CGC books, and depending on the era, the grade. Bronze Age and Modern Age CGC 9.8 books signed by Stan Lee, that are keys... now we are talking.

I will bring up this 1 book as an example, but I would think it would highlight the point... 

Bring up an X-Men #137, Death of Phoenix/Jean Grey, pretty iconic book, maybe a weak key... only 45 signed 9.8s. I am sure, less than half of those are signed by Stan Lee. Only 25 books ever signed by Stan Lee of, arguably one of the most iconic comics of a decade? Weird to me, but to your point, I think there were too many people that focused on getting him to sign 'everything under the sun' and didn't focus their efforts on things that he should have been signing.

 

[MattTheDuck]

On 4/4/2023 at 12:13 AM, World Devourer said:

Oh, I've done the research. I know he had feet of clay. I know most of his writing was atrocious. That said, many other people co-collaborated to make Marvel what it was and leave many of us with happy childhood memories.

 

If Stan hadn't been the SOB he was, you wouldn't have the happy childhood memories you have.  

[MattTheDuck]

On 4/4/2023 at 2:15 AM, Grendel72 said:

Really now. ASM 33, 50. FF 51 are classics. This is just at the top of my head. If you're comparing him to Dickens or Joyce then maybe so. He definitely wasn't atrocious by any measure. 

It's amazing to me that people argue both that Stan was a bad writer and that he didn't really write anything - Ditko or Kirby or whoever did all the actual story plotting, etc.  The quality of the arguments "against" Stan always give me pause.

[World Devourer]

On 4/8/2023 at 12:52 AM, MattTheDuck said:

If Stan hadn't been the SOB he was, you wouldn't have the happy childhood memories you have.  

Perhaps...but that doesn't excuse the way he treated people.

[shadroch]

You can send me all the worthless Stan signed books you want to recycle. I'll even cover the shipping on Sig Series slabs.

In 50 years, which will be more desirable?    A verified Stan Lee signed book or a Neal Adams signed book?  What about Stan vs. Jim Lee? 

[D2]

On 4/7/2023 at 1:34 PM, World Devourer said:

Perhaps...but that doesn't excuse the way he treated people.

I mean, he was a Titan. 

Everyone that has become someone, is and was a Titan. Every single person. 

You can’t get anywhere without becoming one.

 

There is a documentary out, it’s old now, Bigger, Stronger, Faster. On there is a quick little interview with the guy who has the biggest arms recorded in the world. 
Long story short, he talks about Arnold Schwarzenegger, and describes him as follows: There are two types of fish, a minnow and a barracuda. Make no mistake, Arnold is a barracuda. 

Arnold is a barracuda, Steve Jobs is a barracuda, Elon Musk is a barracuda, Todd McFarlane is a barracuda, Stan Lee is a barracuda. 

These people didn’t become figure heads of their industries being a minnow. 

[DrMitchJ]

On 3/30/2022 at 8:58 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Because:

...to books he worked on.

EXACTLY ... for a while he was taking credit for nearly everything (there was a QVC where he signed a print with Captain America and Wolverine on it and claimed he created every character that was on the lithograph)  ... 

anyway, yes, books where he was credited as the author or the actual editor, but when he became Editor Emeritus and his name was on nearly every title, he shouldn't have signed those books. At first, I remember CGC promoting "Stan's Collection" and those books were advertised as his actual "file copies" IIRC. 

And yes, I believe he was taken advantage by his daughter in his last few years, but he took advantage of so many co-creators and in so doing, denied them lots of money that would have been rightfully due to them ... so Karma?? 

Anyway, I love Stan "The Man"  ... I hate Stan "Funky Flashman"  ... he had a good side and a bad side just like everyone on the planet. 

[thehumantorch]

On 4/4/2023 at 3:15 AM, Grendel72 said:

On 4/4/2023 at 1:13 AM, World Devourer said:

 I know most of his writing was atrocious. 

 

Really now. ASM 33, 50. FF 51 are classics. This is just at the top of my head. If you're comparing him to Dickens or Joyce then maybe so. He definitely wasn't atrocious by any measure. 

Agreed, I'll take Stan's writing over almost anyone.  The early to mid 1960s Marvels are my favorites to read  except for perhaps Barks work on Uncle Scrooge Donald Duck.

[DrMitchJ]

On 4/2/2023 at 1:36 AM, Doctor Obscure said:

evidence for him getting the credit he did as a result of the corporate buyers of Marvel at the time Martin Goodman selling it needing to tie up freelancer's claims is much higher and much easier to see. Stan has more documented cases of declaring his lack of interest in comics, passion for comics, and reading comics than he has documented cases of him declaring that he even likes comics. He explained dozens of times how he tried to get out of comics. And once he could use comics as a chance to go to L.A., he did. Stan Lee is a myth. Being an admittedly witty and affable Editor and decent dialogue writer on finished fully drawn stories does not constitute what Stan gets.

It certainly helped that Uncle Martin was Stan's boss, and Uncle Martin used Stan's relationship with the artists to screw them over. Jack Kirby (and Steve Ditko) probably got screwed over the most (especially when the Merry Marvel Marching Society cartoons were released)  Without Jack (and Steve), Marvel wouldn't be what Marvel is today. In fact, if you took all the characters that were created by Jack (and Steve) w/Stan and compared their worth to all the characters that Stan created with everyone else  .... there is no comparison. 

But that being said, Stan was the face of Marvel, Stan outlived most of his co-creators, so Stan's history of Marvel is canon. 

One example of a Stan Lee contradiction to history, in Origins of Marvel Comics (or Son of Origin?) Stan goes into detail how Kirby created the Silver Surfer ... When Stan received the pages to dialogue, he had no idea who that was flying around on the penciled pages of The Galactus Trilogy (FF 48-50) and when he called Jack about it, Kirby said, that Galactus needed a Herald to scout things out for the Big Guy.  I don't remember who came up with the name, but Kirby had the guy on a Surf Board because surfing was kind of a big thing right about then. I think that Stan's contribution to the Silver Surfer was that Jack needed to add shorts so he didn't look naked!! Wow, what an editor  Anyhow, it's well documented, but kinda retracted by Stan in subsequent stories and recollections.  

[World Devourer]

On 4/4/2023 at 7:15 PM, Grendel72 said:

Really now. ASM 33, 50. FF 51 are classics. This is just at the top of my head.  

Very really. There are a few FF stories that are good, but many were verbose and quite repetitive. Tales to Astonish and Tales of Suspense introduced many classic villains, but were in the main atrocious (check out all the anti-Communism stories and Giant - Man efforts) And so on. We'll never know the extent of the contribution of others, but I suspect in some cases it was more than 50%. I think Lee thought in broad terms, and it fell to others to refine the vision.

Edited April 15, 2023 by World Devourer