LOCKED - OP request - CLOSED MODS PLEASE REMOVE IF POSSIBLE 5 5

[Bird]

On 4/9/2022 at 7:13 PM, Diamonddave said:

The text from Monday Feb 22, please read. How would you interpet that?

you mean the one with IMO in the middle? I interpret that HE thinks it is at least a 9.0 (and that you should both join the grading contest). What I don't see is "yes, I will pay you if it comes back less than 9.0"

[Bird]

On 4/9/2022 at 7:17 PM, Diamonddave said:

Again, I've presented him with several options on the phone and via text. Nothing has happened.

right, but now we are here online and you are looking to be made whole. So you have to ask directly what it takes to make you whole. If he declines, as it appears he has with $2800, then we all see and judge for ourselves. Or you can wait for him to make an offer I guess. But in the end it is your call what you will accept, so eventually that needs to be known.

[wombat]

Part of the problem I see at this point is proving it wasn't damaged after it was received by the buyer. I doubt anyone would hold a seller's guarantee to a grade if it turned out the book was damaged later on. 

[wombat]

On 4/9/2022 at 7:20 PM, Bird said:

On 4/9/2022 at 7:17 PM, Diamonddave said:

Again, I've presented him with several options on the phone and via text. Nothing has happened.

right, but now we are here online and you are looking to be made whole. So you have to ask directly what it takes to make you whole. If he declines, as it appears he has with $2800, then we all see and judge for ourselves. Or you can wait for him to make an offer I guess. But in the end it is your call what you will accept, so eventually that needs to be known.

I believe in order to put someone on the PL list it has to be known up front how they would get off of the list. So yeah, presenting vagueness on what  your acceptable resolution would be seems like it would actually prevent being added to the list in the first place. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by wombat

[Diamonddave]

On 4/9/2022 at 5:58 PM, Joshua33 said:

Right, but now you've taken that privacy, public. If you don't mind me asking... what options for resolution have been offered, so we can all understand?

Cash, partial cash + books, books or he buys books from me to help balance this trade. 

Nothing has come to fruition.

[MattTheDuck]

On 4/9/2022 at 4:21 PM, wombat said:

Part of the problem I see at this point is proving it wasn't damaged after it was received by the buyer. I doubt anyone would hold a seller's guarantee to a grade if it turned out the book was damaged later on. 

Yeah, it's a real problem.  It's hard to believe this book was actually a 6.0 before leaving Roger's hands because there's no way an experienced person would a) mis-judge a book by that much or b) think they could claim a 9.0 grade for a 6.0 and have another experienced person not realize it either from the scans/pictures or when the book was in hand.  If the book was damaged somehow when sent for pressing or after, that's where the obligation lies, so it's easy to see why Roger would be concerned about providing full compensation if Dave could also then make a claim against Metro.

Edited April 9, 2022 by MattTheDuck

[Axe Elf]

As a trained mediator, I think you both hold equal responsibility for transacting more on opinions, hopes and wishes than on actual facts--and both of you either suspended your better grading judgment or simply failed grossly to assess the actual condition of the comics in question.

Therefore I would rule you both culpable, with a $1400 settlement in DD's favor.

[Diamonddave]

On 4/9/2022 at 6:26 PM, MattTheDuck said:

Yeah, it's a real problem.  It's hard to believe this book was actually a 6.0 before leaving Roger's hands because there's no way an experienced person would a) mis-judge a book by that much or b) think they could claim a 9.0 grade for a 6.0 and have another experienced person not realize it either from the scans/pictures or when the book was in hand.  If the book was damaged somehow when sent for pressing or after, that's where the obligation lies, so it's easy to see why Roger would be concerned about providing full compensation if the Dave could also then make a claim against Metro.

Did you see the picture of the book in the holder and the notes I posted? What press or what mishandling would account for pinholes in the cover? 

And, that is only half the issue here, the TR32 was estimated at a 4.0, minimum 3.5 I'd the cover was to become completely detatched from the book, which it did. 

All of this is documented in the very first post I made.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Diamonddave

[wombat]

On 4/9/2022 at 7:25 PM, Diamonddave said:

On 4/9/2022 at 6:58 PM, Joshua33 said:

Right, but now you've taken that privacy, public. If you don't mind me asking... what options for resolution have been offered, so we can all understand?

Cash, partial cash + books, books or he buys books from me to help balance this trade. 

Nothing has come to fruition.

You are going to have to put a dollar value on your resolution. Otherwise it will be impossible to know if a solution will ever be acceptable. 

[Bird]

someone here puts a great disclaimer on their grades, something like a guarantee cgc grades it within 2 grades because you never know with those yahoos, right?

7.0/9.0 is a tough split, especially for people both holding the book in hand.

both parties bear responsibility. if it was in house all the time and you handed it off, did you look at it after pressing and before sending it off?

I don't know either person, but (a) selling a "7.0 at worst" / "9.0 at least" and (b) submitting a "looks like a 7.0 but may press to 9.0" and complaining when it comes back a 6.0 are both unfortunate hands to be holding in this game of poker.

 

$2800 was requested and declined. mediation was offered as a counter, is that possible?

mikey? kav? sharon? buzz? jay? rma?

[MattTheDuck]

On 4/9/2022 at 4:27 PM, Diamonddave said:

Did you see the picture of the book in the holder and the notes I posted? What press or what mishandling would account for pinholes in the cover? 

Impossible for me to say, but you held this book in your hands and scrutinized it and did not see any pinholes, so there don't appear to be any other options.

[Bird]

On 4/9/2022 at 7:27 PM, Diamonddave said:

Did you see the picture of the book in the holder and the notes I posted? What press or what mishandling would account for pinholes in the cover? 

And, that is only half the issue here, the TR32 was estimated at a 4.0, minimum 3.5 I'd the cover was to become completely detatched from the book, which it did. 

All of this is documented in the very first post I made.

You don't have to argue your point I don't think, not unless $2800 is the only thing you will accept. Problems clearly occurred. what happens now though?

take some time, read the thread once or twice, take some more time and come back and let everyone know how he can resolve the situation or how you want to proceed. There are solutions and mediators offered. No one says you have no case and even roger says it is unresolved. it's never going to be all good - books will never be what was expected. 

so, early 2021 values or 4/9/22 values? lots to unpack after all this time.

[Grendel72]

Based on what has been shown, there is little chance Roger66 would get nominated. In essence both of you agreed that restitution would be made if the agreed upon grades didnt materialise but the terms of this restitution were never nailed down. So we are just going round and round but this is the material point: Roger66 did not go back on his word as he is willing to make restitution but you do not like the terms. 

I do think getting someone both of you trust ( or maybe even 2 boardies) to mediate is the best option. Personally I would just walk away , lesson learnt. The lesson being iron out the details at the onset. 

[comicginger1789]

I’m only on page 2 and I don’t know either of you but i don’t see a case here against Roger….

[skypinkblu]

On 4/9/2022 at 7:27 PM, Diamonddave said:

Did you see the picture of the book in the holder and the notes I posted? What press or what mishandling would account for pinholes in the cover? 

And, that is only half the issue here, the TR32 was estimated at a 4.0, minimum 3.5 I'd the cover was to become completely detatched from the book, which it did. 

All of this is documented in the very first post I made.

Dave, I am very sorry that both of you are going through this and I  have a few  questions.

You state that you are an experienced seller. Are you also an experienced grader? 

If so, why would you value Roger's grading expertise beyond yours?

Also did you see pinholes when you got the book?

[Diamonddave]

On 4/9/2022 at 7:27 PM, skypinkblu said:

Dave, I am very sorry that both of you are going through this and I  have a few  questions.

You state that you are an experienced seller. Are you also an experienced grader? 

If so, why would you value Roger's grading expertise beyond yours?

Also did you see pinholes when you got the book?

I am a very experienced grader, ive been buying and selling here for almost a decade and I've not had a book sold here returned to me in almost 7 years. 

I did not see any pinholes, but I also do not have a jewelers loop. 

I dont value other people's grading opinion above my own, however grading is all subjective. If Roger was willing to  say that this book would get a VF/NM and go so far as to say there is no way it isn't was good enough for me. 

[Dr. Love]

What would be done if Roger passed away while you were waiting to be made whole?  Sounds far fetched, happens all the time, all day, every day.

The only deal on the table is books in the hand and what you take them for at the time you receive them. After that, its chaos no matter what you think.  Anything else is hopium mixed with naivety and magical thinking for flavor. Learn the lesson now - and it's not about Roger. 

Your best bet is to agree on an arbitrator.  Roger understands that once that process begins he is bound by the decision, as you are.  

[skypinkblu]

On 4/9/2022 at 8:38 PM, Diamonddave said:

I am a very experienced grader, ive been buying and selling here for almost a decade and I've not had a book sold here returned to me in almost 7 years. 

I did not see any pinholes, but I also do not have a jewelers loop. 

I dont value other people's grading opinion above my own, however grading is all subjective. If Roger was willing to  say that this book would get a VF/NM and go so far as to say there is no way it isn't was good enough for me. 

I don't think in the more than 20 years that I have been on eBay, or the few less than I've been on here, I've ever been willing to guarantee a CGC grade. Sometimes they are higher than my guesses, sometimes lower. I used to be pretty accurate, but that was when we pretty much had the same graders all the time and they worked in teams of 3 or even 2. It's like betting on raindrops or something similar...except you THINK you know where the raindrops will land.

I don't like trades because I always get the feeling that for at least one party it's a gamble...the idea is to get the best deal...but I'm not a professional so I may be wrong..

My thoughts are you are both good guys and things got away from you. If you could agree to a split 50/50 in the $2800, I'd suggest you shake hands, hug if you are not averse to hugging ...and just call it a day. 

If not, Joshua bravely and kindly offered to moderate. I'd take up his offer and do it privately in a 3 way pm or phone call before anyone burns any bridges.

[Diamonddave]

On 4/9/2022 at 7:45 PM, Dr. Love said:

What would be done if Roger passed away while you were waiting to be made whole?  Sounds far fetched, happens all the time, all day, every day.

The only deal on the table is books in the hand and what you take them for at the time you receive them. After that, its chaos no matter what you think.  Anything else is hopium mixed with naivety and magical thinking for flavor. Learn the lesson now - and it's not about Roger. 

Your best bet is to agree on an arbitrator.  Roger understands that once that process begins he is bound by the decision, as you are.  

He didn't pass away though did he, so that is moot. 

And I guess a promise is only as good as the person making it. 

[Diamonddave]

On 4/9/2022 at 6:24 PM, wombat said:

I believe in order to put someone on the PL list it has to be known up front how they would get off of the list. So yeah, presenting vagueness on what  your acceptable resolution would be seems like it would actually prevent being added to the list in the first place. 

I have offered him books to buy to help me recoup the cost, ive offered that he can send me partial payment in cash and books. Nothing has been accepted.