• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

The $3.12 million Cap 1 sale makes me ask again: Where will this book stand in the GA hierarchy?
6 6

161 posts in this topic

On 4/13/2022 at 10:02 AM, Crowzilla said:

Just imagine how much more the Cap1 would have sold for if the Superman #1 sale had been public knowledge before the auction.

Even Mitch "Criswell" Mehdy said yesterday Superman will fade and that Cap is #3 now, so if an 8.0 8.5 Superman #1 is worth 5 mil, the Cap is probably a 6-8 million book today.

So the new upgraded 8.5 SM#1 is the best copy out there. I still maintain that when the 9.8 Cap 1 hits, it will break the 5M mark easily, now I did say in the next 10 years not yesterday on my prediction, give it time to play out.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/13/2022 at 6:16 PM, Mmehdy said:

So the new upgraded 8.5 SM#1 is the best copy out there. I still maintain that when the 9.8 Cap 1 hits, it will break the 5M mark easily, now I did say in the next 10 years not yesterday on my prediction, give it time to play out.....

The 9.8 cap 1 might be worth more than the best supes, but it’s kind of an anomaly due to the grades.   Any kind of grade to grade comparison the supes will win.    Imagine if a 9.8 supes 1 existed. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/13/2022 at 11:04 PM, VintageComics said:

I would think if you had an imaginary catalogue selling the best known copy of each book, they'd all fall into a well agreed upon order. 

Like the nicest Superman #1 on earth would likely be ahead of the nicest Cap #1 on earth but behind the Action #1 and Detective #27.

Cap #1, Batman #1, Marvel #1 would all be vying for 4th through 6th spots. 

Something like that.  

 

That is true state of the art for these books over the last 50 years, where Cap1 trumps them is that it the first appearance of him in any book, that over time should be Cap to be the equal of Bat 1 and Sup 1, similar to Marvel 1....The real question is what is the next big big GA Key to break the 1 M price barrier, I would say AA16 is prime....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/14/2022 at 10:43 AM, Robot Man said:

Who ever owned that and did that to it, just doesn’t deserve owning it…

Agreed.  Makes me wonder how much the restoration devalues the book or is it rendered null and void due to the fact that it's a MH book?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/14/2022 at 4:44 PM, PDGray said:

So, based on the responses here the question has popped into my mind - based on EQUAL grades - what would you think the heirarchy is?

I would think:

1. Action 1

2. Tec 27

3. Captain America 1

4. Batman 1

5. Superman 1

 

PDG

Equal grades is a tough discussion because some books don't exist in some grades. 

Marvel #1 is raw but rumored to be a 9.8

Cap #1 is a 9.8

Action #1 top book is rumored to be a 9.2ish copy with 2 slabbed 9.0s on the census

Tec #27 has a slabbed 9.2 but not sure on The Dentist's copy

Batman #1 is a slabbed 9.4 but is there a nicer copy?

A better discussion might be where each top copy of each issue should fall in the hierarchy...or would it?

You'd have to establish that first. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/14/2022 at 3:50 PM, VintageComics said:

Equal grades is a tough discussion because some books don't exist in some grades. 

Marvel #1 is raw but rumored to be a 9.8

Cap #1 is a 9.8

Action #1 top book is rumored to be a 9.2ish copy with 2 slabbed 9.0s on the census

Tec #27 has a slabbed 9.2 but not sure on The Dentist's copy

Batman #1 is a slabbed 9.4 but is there a nicer copy?

A better discussion might be where each top copy of each issue should fall in the hierarchy...or would it?

You'd have to establish that first. 

 

Yeah, I know they don't exist it the same grades - maybe some of the lower grades there might be some equity, but I wanted to gather thoughts as a thought exercise as much as anything else.

Dumb question - I have heard mentioned of The Dentists copy, but who is that?  Or is that an anonymous owner of the books?  Forgive my lack of knowledge here.

 

PDG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/14/2022 at 5:00 PM, PDGray said:

I have heard mentioned of The Dentists copy, but who is that?

The Dentist is just a nickname for a well known collector who owns some of the nicest books in the hobby (and they are not available at any price).

His real name is Dave Anderson. It's not a secret. People just enjoy using the nickname. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/14/2022 at 12:14 PM, Mmehdy said:

That is true state of the art for these books over the last 50 years, where Cap1 trumps them is that it the first appearance of him in any book, that over time should be Cap to be the equal of Bat 1 and Sup 1, similar to Marvel 1....The real question is what is the next big big GA Key to break the 1 M price barrier, I would say AA16 is prime....

Equal Grades is an easy hierarchy, and for me top copies follow the same hierarchy.  I don't care if you have a 10.0 Marvel Spotlight, it will never be more valuable to me than a 9.6 FF 1 or a 9.2 Action 1 etc.  Grade only matters to value for books of the same issue - it does not matter to comparing values of different issues.  The top Action 1, even if a 9.2, is always going to be worth more than a 9.8 CA 1.  Here's my rank:

1. Action 1 - First comic to feature a superhero (a cover no less) and that iconic superhero, Superman, is still popular today.

2. Detective 27 - First Batman.

3. Superman 1 - The very first comic dedicated to a single superhero!  Very historically important.  Superman 1 has the first appearance of the Kent's in the origin (which is another selling point), but that book is so historically important it is going to rank out higher that everything else below it just because of what it is - the very first single superhero comic book. When that book came out, Detective 28 (2nd Batman) was on the racks.  The superheros covers on the racks were Action 13, Superman 1, Keen Detective Funnies 13 (Masked Marvel), and Wonder World 3 (the Flame).  It was an incredibly early book.  And it is the rarest of the big GA books in grade. If a 9.8 existed, it would be a solid no. 3.

4. Batman 1 - First Joker and Catwoman.  Very hard to beat those TWO first appearances.  I don't think CA does it.  Plus, it is the first Batman comic, a series that still runs to today.

5. Marvel Comics 1 - First Marvel Comic.  Again, very historically important.  I rank the first appearance of the Marvel brand as more important than the first appearance of almost all Marvel characters. Doesn't hurt it has the first newsstand appearances of both the Human Torch and the Submariner (I tend to think MPFW was never distributed).  Those are two of the big three for Timely's GA.  And arguably those two not only had more GA appearances than CA, they also had more staying power based on the evidence of the Atlas revival (nine covers for HT and Subby, three covers for CA).

6. Admittedly, CA 1 is not even the first appearance of a patriotic superhero.  CA was a trend follower of the Shield.  CA 1 came out late in the GA (1941 versus 1939).  However, CA 1 is merely the first appearance of CA.  That might mean a lot to many comic collectors, but personally I don't rate that appearance higher than the first newsstand appearances of the Joker and Catwoman (Batman 1) or the Human Torch and Submariner (MC 1 -- I tend to think MPFW was never distributed), or of Captain Marvel.  So CA 1 is destined to be no higher than top 5 for me.  BUT, I put him no. 6 due to his present rep.  I could slot in Whiz 2 here.  

As for the next big $1M sale: All-Star 8 is an easy choice.  The CGC 9.4 sold for $936K four to five years ago and it may be the buyer will want to cash out.  No AA 16 has yet broken $300K and it does not seem that Verzyl's copy is coming to market.  I could see a really nice D31 or D33 also going $1M.  The long money would be on the MH or SF More Fun 52 hitting the market.  Or a 9.0+ Pep 22 (MH is locked up with DA, maybe Bangzoom's copy could hit that?).  Is the MH Whiz 2 locked up with DA, that would be an obvious contender as well!

Edited by sfcityduck
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/13/2022 at 10:45 PM, jimjum12 said:

Is there a Mile High copy of Cap 1 ? .... I'm drawing a blank. GOD BLESS....

There sure is as I clearly remember holding it in my hands along with the Church copy of Adventure Comics 40 back in '94.  :luhv:

In NYC for the first time and visited the Metro offices when Fishler pulled out both of these Church books that he was about to send out and asked me to take a close look at them to see if I could spot anything wrong.  I remember pointing out the area on the Cap where I thought some work had been done and Fishler said that was indeed the area as both books unfortunately had a small amount of resto work done to them.  :takeit:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/15/2022 at 3:47 AM, pemart1966 said:

Agreed.  Makes me wonder how much the restoration devalues the book or is it rendered null and void due to the fact that it's a MH book?

The Church GL 1 and Adventure 40 say:  PLOD > MH

Edited by tth2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/14/2022 at 7:43 AM, Robot Man said:

Who ever owned that and did that to it, just doesn’t deserve owning it…

I think this was most likely done at a time when restoration was seen as a positive that ADDED VALUE to a book, similar to today where we now see more subtle forms of what was once also considered to be restoration as now nothing more than "maximization of potential".  Clearly no added value to the book from a conservation point of view, with the sole purpose being undisclosed grade enhancement in order to get added value into your bank account.  :devil:

Clearly we have not learned anything from our past mistakes and instead of eliminating it, have now actually institutionalized it as part of the whole grading process.  Like Matt has alluded to in some of his interviews in the past, he has managed to level the playing field for all collectors within the marketplace.  Unfortunately not in the way that some collectors would like in terms of eliminating the comic book doctors, but instead we all now have to wallow around in the same mud pile lest our books do not receive the grades they deserve when submitted in for grading.  :frustrated:  :censored:

Then again, it is what it is and as long as you understand the rules of the game and how it's supposed to be played, you really can't complain too much if you want to continue with your collecting passion.  (thumbsu

Edited by lou_fine
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/14/2022 at 2:11 PM, sfcityduck said:

Equal Grades is an easy hierarchy, and for me top copies follow the same hierarchy.  I don't care if you have a 10.0 Marvel Spotlight, it will never be more valuable to me than a 9.6 FF 1 or a 9.2 Action 1 etc.  Grade only matters to value for books of the same issue - it does not matter to comparing values of different issues.  The top Action 1, even if a 9.2, is always going to be worth more than a 9.8 CA 1.  Here's my rank:

1. Action 1 - First comic to feature a superhero (a cover no less) and that iconic superhero, Superman, is still popular today.

2. Detective 27 - First Batman.

3. Superman 1 - The very first comic dedicated to a single superhero!  Very historically important.  Superman 1 has the first appearance of the Kent's in the origin (which is another selling point), but that book is so historically important it is going to rank out higher that everything else below it just because of what it is - the very first single superhero comic book. When that book came out, Detective 28 (2nd Batman) was on the racks.  The superheros covers on the racks were Action 13, Superman 1, Keen Detective Funnies 13 (Masked Marvel), and Wonder World 3 (the Flame).  It was an incredibly early book.  And it is the rarest of the big GA books in grade. If a 9.8 existed, it would be a solid no. 3.

4. Batman 1 - First Joker and Catwoman.  Very hard to beat those TWO first appearances.  I don't think CA does it.  Plus, it is the first Batman comic, a series that still runs to today.

5. Marvel Comics 1 - First Marvel Comic.  Again, very historically important.  I rank the first appearance of the Marvel brand as more important than the first appearance of almost all Marvel characters. Doesn't hurt it has the first newsstand appearances of both the Human Torch and the Submariner (I tend to think MPFW was never distributed).  Those are two of the big three for Timely's GA.  And arguably those two not only had more GA appearances than CA, they also had more staying power based on the evidence of the Atlas revival (nine covers for HT and Subby, three covers for CA).

6. Admittedly, CA 1 is not even the first appearance of a patriotic superhero.  CA was a trend follower of the Shield.  CA 1 came out late in the GA (1941 versus 1939).  However, CA 1 is merely the first appearance of CA.  That might mean a lot to many comic collectors, but personally I don't rate that appearance higher than the first newsstand appearances of the Joker and Catwoman (Batman 1) or the Human Torch and Submariner (MC 1 -- I tend to think MPFW was never distributed), or of Captain Marvel.  So CA 1 is destined to be no higher than top 5 for me.  BUT, I put him no. 6 due to his present rep.  I could slot in Whiz 2 here.  

As for the next big $1M sale: All-Star 8 is an easy choice.  The CGC 9.4 sold for $936K four to five years ago and it may be the buyer will want to cash out.  No AA 16 has yet broken $300K and it does not seem that Verzyl's copy is coming to market.  I could see a really nice D31 or D33 also going $1M.  The long money would be on the MH or SF More Fun 52 hitting the market.  Or a 9.0+ Pep 22 (MH is locked up with DA, maybe Bangzoom's copy could hit that?).  Is the MH Whiz 2 locked up with DA, that would be an obvious contender as well!

Does a raw, high grade Captain Marvel Adventures nn exist? The highest unrestored on the census are two 5.0’s. And to be clear I’m not saying I think if a 9.0+ were ever graded it would even break 1 mil. So not trying to compare it to these other books, but just curious if anyone knows of one existing? It seems to be the one golden age grail that doesn’t have a higher grade copy out there.

Edited by LDarkseid1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
6 6