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Heritage September 2022 comic and art auction
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597 posts in this topic

On 9/16/2022 at 9:04 PM, Bill C said:

In 1987 I made the mistake of eating a whole jar of peanut butter and a whole jar of fluffernutter (as sandwiches) over the course of a couple days. I have never been so impacted.

A Taco Bell CHIPOTLE CHEDDAR CHALUPA would have cleared that up had they existed in 1987.

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On 9/16/2022 at 7:20 PM, drdonaldblake1 said:

Re the shallow end feeding frenzy for lower quality material, those Miller DD PAGes with virtually no DD images going for $20-30k 🤯

Then this week someone on CAF out up a DD page # 160 I think, with one or two DD images asking $100k....insanity

Found this on-line from the the History channel. https://www.history.com/news/tulip-mania-financial-crash-holland.

Tulip price index from 1636-1637. The values of this index were compiled by Earl A. Thompson in Thompson, Earl (2007), "The Tulipmania: Fact or artifact?", Public Choice 130, 99–114 (2007).

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On 9/15/2022 at 8:27 PM, Grant Turner said:

Not being facetious…

is there talk about silver age stuff gathering dust?  Certainly not Marvel hero stuff, at least not that I see

Since you asked, I decided to test my sense of hobby pricing. As I am sure you know, Murphy Anderson is a well respected artist, and his Hawkman work is certainly outstanding. But, if you stay away from the prices on his covers and major splashes, and focus on panel pages, you can see what I mean. 

I had seen a Hawkman panel page go for $2,400 at the recent Heritage auction, and I was shocked at what I thought was a bargain. Turns out, it was only a fair price by historic standards, but not a bargain. First, here is the page:

AndersonHawkman.thumb.jpg.5dfd16f5c43ea94bd4d2a93ad44555e1.jpg

I then went back through Heritage's old auction results to develop comparisons. When doing so, I limited my criteria to exclude any covers, almost all full page splashes, and almost anything that wasn't from Hawkman. I did include a few Atom and Hawkman pages when I saw them (since it was a continuation of the Hawkman and the Atom books), a single Mystery in Space page from a Hawkman story and one splash from A&H (which had a very small image of Hawkman, and mostly consisted of the Gentleman Ghost).  Mostly, the inclusions were due to a time gap of comparables. I also excluded pages from Hawkman which did not include him. There were a number of sales of multiple pages, which, on a per page basis, were more or less in line with other prices. 

Another point worth mentioning is the Consumer Price Index. The first table entry is from July, 2002 for $1,840.00. By August, 2022, $1,840.00 inflated to $3,025.84. Oh, and don't forget, Heritage has also increased its premium over the years.

Here's the result from an MS Word table (which didn't paste in very elegantly), with some comments in the middle. 

Date

Comments

Price

07/04/02

With both Hawkman and Hawkwoman

$1,840.00

03/08/03

Includes large vertical panels

$1,322.50

03/08/03

Attempted Flip, same as 07/04/02

$1,782.50

01/02/05

Includes Hawkman and Hawkwoman

$920.00

02/29/08

5 panel, 3 mini-splashes, both Hawks

$2,031.50

08/02/13

Bland, 7 panel, 2 mini-splashes

$1,553.50

05/13/16

Mostly, one large splash (nice piece, but look at 08/04/18)

$2,629.00

02/25/17

Atom and Hawkman, w/half splash

$2,390.00

02/23/18

Hawkman, all 5 panels

$2,509.50

08/03/18

Includes 2 mini-splashes, with fight scene. High quality 5 panel

$3,600.00

08/04/18

Same splash as 05/13/16

$1,200.00

08/03/19

Attempted flip of 08/03/18

$3,240.00

05/02/20

Mystery in Space, Hawkman story

$1,620.00

09/11/20

Same as one for 03/08/03

$6,600.00

12/14/20

Atom and Hawkman, p. 1 splash with little Hawkman and big Gentleman Ghost

$1,440.00

04/08/22

From Hawkman 1, 2 mini-splashes

$6,600.00

09/11/22

Adam Strange and Hawkman

$2,400.00

In fairness to Mr. Anderson, his covers and major splashes do appear to have done a good deal better. On the other hand, these results seem broadly consistent with the prices of his efforts on different books for panel pages. 

Now, I haven't checked, yet, but I will wager that Silver Age Marvel has done a lot better for B-level hero's like Hawkman 

All of this is to my point that subcategories of art should be in the discussion of OA. We do a disservice to collectors when we paint with a broad brush, and permit dealers to overcharge when we buy into it.

Edited by Rick2you2
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On 9/17/2022 at 11:49 AM, Rick2you2 said:

Since you asked, I decided to test my sense of hobby pricing. As I am sure you know, Murphy Anderson is a well respected artist, and his Hawkman work is certainly outstanding. But, if you stay away from the prices on his covers and major splashes, and focus on panel pages, you can see what I mean. 

I had seen a Hawkman panel page go for $2,400 at the recent Heritage auction, and I was shocked at what I thought was a bargain. Turns out, it was only a fair price by historic standards, but not a bargain. First, here is the page:

AndersonHawkman.thumb.jpg.5dfd16f5c43ea94bd4d2a93ad44555e1.jpg

I then went back through Heritage's old auction results to develop comparisons. When doing so, I limited my criteria to exclude any covers, almost all full page splashes, and almost anything that wasn't from Hawkman. I did include a few Atom and Hawkman pages when I saw them (since it was a continuation of the Hawkman and the Atom books), a single Mystery in Space page from a Hawkman story and one splash from A&H (which had a very small image of Hawkman, and mostly consisted of the Gentleman Ghost).  Mostly, the inclusions were due to a time gap of comparables. I also excluded pages from Hawkman which did not include him. There were a number of sales of multiple pages, which, on a per page basis, were more or less in line with other prices. 

Another point worth mentioning is the Consumer Price Index. The first table entry is from July, 2002 for $1,840.00. By August, 2022, $1,840.00 inflated to $3,025.84. Oh, and don't forget, Heritage has also increased its premium over the years.

Here's the result from an MS Word table (which didn't paste in very elegantly), with some comments in the middle. 

Date

Comments

Price

07/04/02

With both Hawkman and Hawkwoman

$1,840.00

03/08/03

Includes large vertical panels

$1,322.50

03/08/03

Attempted Flip, same as 07/04/02

$1,782.50

01/02/05

Includes Hawkman and Hawkwoman

$920.00

02/29/08

5 panel, 3 mini-splashes, both Hawks

$2,031.50

08/02/13

Bland, 7 panel, 2 mini-splashes

$1,553.50

05/13/16

Mostly, one large splash (nice piece, but look at 08/04/18)

$2,629.00

02/25/17

Atom and Hawkman, w/half splash

$2,390.00

02/23/18

Hawkman, all 5 panels

$2,509.50

08/03/18

Includes 2 mini-splashes, with fight scene. High quality 5 panel

$3,600.00

08/04/18

Same splash as 05/13/16

$1,200.00

08/03/19

Attempted flip of 08/03/18

$3,240.00

05/02/20

Mystery in Space, Hawkman story

$1,620.00

09/11/20

Same as one for 03/08/03

$6,600.00

12/14/20

Atom and Hawkman, p. 1 splash with little Hawkman and big Gentleman Ghost

$1,440.00

04/08/22

From Hawkman 1, 2 mini-splashes

$6,600.00

09/11/22

Adam Strange and Hawkman

$2,400.00

In fairness to Mr. Anderson, his covers and major splashes do appear to have done a good deal better. On the other hand, these results seem broadly consistent with the prices of his efforts on different books for panel pages. 

Now, I haven't checked, yet, but I will wager that Silver Age Marvel has done a lot better for B-level hero's like Hawkman 

All of this is to my point that subcategories of art should be in the discussion of OA. We do a disservice to collectors when we paint with a broad brush, and permit dealers to overcharge when we buy into it.

iIRC, you may have forgotten to factor in the plethora of Anderson artwork that flooded the market shortly after his death.

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On 9/17/2022 at 12:05 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

Search for “from the collection of Murphy Anderson”…way too many results to list here

Look, just as a point of comparison, a Byrne/Austin X-Men page, with 5 panels went for $2,477.50 on October 12, 2002. A different Byrne/Austin page, 7 panels, went for $36,000 on Sept. 9, 2022. That about 14 times more than the price in 2002. Yet, depending on your view, the Murphy Hawkman page did anything from not keeping up with inflation to 2-3 times higher.  And it's a lot easier for a piece to climb higher at a low base than a high base. 

So, why do we keep talking about "the market" instead of the submarkets for different types of OA?  

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On 9/17/2022 at 1:53 PM, Rick2you2 said:

Look, just as a point of comparison, a Byrne/Austin X-Men page, with 5 panels went for $2,477.50 on October 12, 2002. A different Byrne/Austin page, 7 panels, went for $36,000 on Sept. 9, 2022. That about 14 times more than the price in 2002. Yet, depending on your view, the Murphy Hawkman page did anything from not keeping up with inflation to 2-3 times higher.  And it's a lot easier for a piece to climb higher at a low base than a high base. 

So, why do we keep talking about "the market" instead of the submarkets for different types of OA?  

You are so confusing that it’s dizzying trying to understand your point.

firstly, original art is a one of a kind item.  Trying to use the sale of a Byrne Xmen page from 2002 with the sale of a different Byrne Xmen page that sold in 2022 for 14x the 2002 page is folly.

but then to say that an Anderson Hawkman page, which didn’t even keep up with inflation during this same period will climb higher (assume you meant to say it will increase in price by x times faster than the Byrne Xmen) is ludicrous.

the Byrne Xmen pages will always be in demand, with fierce competition driving prices ever higher.

By comparison, not so much for Anderson Hawkman pages

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On 9/17/2022 at 2:24 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

You are so confusing that it’s dizzying trying to understand your point.

firstly, original art is a one of a kind item.  Trying to use the sale of a Byrne Xmen page from 2002 with the sale of a different Byrne Xmen page that sold in 2022 for 14x the 2002 page is folly.

but then to say that an Anderson Hawkman page, which didn’t even keep up with inflation during this same period will climb higher (assume you meant to say it will increase in price by x times faster than the Byrne Xmen) is ludicrous.

the Byrne Xmen pages will always be in demand, with fierce competition driving prices ever higher.

By comparison, not so much for Anderson Hawkman pages

And, unfortunately, Silver Age and Bronze Marvel art will always sell for more than Silver Age and Bronze DC art

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On 9/17/2022 at 4:25 PM, artdealer said:

And, unfortunately, Silver Age and Bronze Marvel art will always sell for more than Silver Age and Bronze DC art

Yes!
It’s one thing to say Silver Age Hawkman pages are stagnant, but looking at Marvel pages, they’re still going strong.

Don Heck early Marvel pages, for example, are seeing huge gains

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On 9/17/2022 at 2:24 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

You are so confusing that it’s dizzying trying to understand your point.

firstly, original art is a one of a kind item.  Trying to use the sale of a Byrne Xmen page from 2002 with the sale of a different Byrne Xmen page that sold in 2022 for 14x the 2002 page is folly.

but then to say that an Anderson Hawkman page, which didn’t even keep up with inflation during this same period will climb higher (assume you meant to say it will increase in price by x times faster than the Byrne Xmen) is ludicrous.

the Byrne Xmen pages will always be in demand, with fierce competition driving prices ever higher.

By comparison, not so much for Anderson Hawkman pages

I will try to make this simple. It was intended as a simple point. I am simply saying that we ought not be referring to the “market”, but instead think about the “markets”. Much like the stock market isn’t really a single market but lots of different submarkets. They may broadly go up or down, but different sections move differently. I, for one, would love to see a lot more attention to those different submarkets in OA.

Similarly, the Byrne “submarket” will invariably sell for more—I am fine with that. I was just trying to use it as a comparison to Anderson as a jumping off point, which I hope I made more clearly by referring to the stock market.

My father used to say that if everyone were average, we would all have one teat and one ball. That’s as good a way as any to explain why I don’t like referring to the “OA market.”
 

 

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Watching the anime/manga auction today, I saw a new bid type. Usually there's just "internet" and "Heritage Live" but today I also saw "floor." What does that mean? Is it the opposite of a chandelier bid? I guess "Heritage Live" bid refers to the use of the Heritage web site's live feed section. What is "internet" apart from that?

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On 9/23/2022 at 10:50 AM, RBerman said:

Watching the anime/manga auction today, I saw a new bid type. Usually there's just "internet" and "Heritage Live" but today I also saw "floor." What does that mean? Is it the opposite of a chandelier bid? I guess "Heritage Live" bid refers to the use of the Heritage web site's live feed section. What is "internet" apart from that?

It means a bidder is right there in the room with the auctioneer.

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On 9/23/2022 at 12:54 PM, lb jefferies said:

It means a bidder is right there in the room with the auctioneer.

I thought it might. I'm surprised never to have seen that before now. So what does "internet but not Heritage Live" mean? Where do the phone bidders fall?

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On 9/17/2022 at 8:01 PM, Rick2you2 said:

I will try to make this simple. It was intended as a simple point. I am simply saying that we ought not be referring to the “market”, but instead think about the “markets”. Much like the stock market isn’t really a single market but lots of different submarkets. They may broadly go up or down, but different sections move differently. I, for one, would love to see a lot more attention to those different submarkets in OA.

Similarly, the Byrne “submarket” will invariably sell for more—I am fine with that. I was just trying to use it as a comparison to Anderson as a jumping off point, which I hope I made more clearly by referring to the stock market.

My father used to say that if everyone were average, we would all have one teat and one ball. That’s as good a way as any to explain why I don’t like referring to the “OA market.”
 

 

Its just shorthand.

You're right that getting into the submarket info provides better data, but the problem with getting into submarkets is that they are essentially infinite, and no one has their finger on the pulse of all of them.   

We can have a general discussion on the overall market, or we can have a specific discussion on a specific submarket.   Those are both perfectly valid options.    Sure, we have to be careful about what conclusions we draw from what discussions, but its probably not realistic to think that we are going to have general discussions with specific data as the norm.

Edited by Bronty
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On 9/23/2022 at 4:34 PM, Bronty said:

Its just shorthand.

You're right that getting into the submarket info provides better data, but the problem with getting into submarkets is that they are essentially infinite, and no one has their finger on the pulse of all of them.   

We can have a general discussion on the overall market, or we can have a specific discussion on a specific submarket.   Those are both perfectly valid options.    Sure, we have to be careful about what conclusions we draw from what discussions, but its probably not realistic to think that we are going to have general discussions with specific data as the norm.

Thank you. Unlike what I assume are a fair number of people here, I usually buy things that are pretty cold and will stay that way. So discussions on prices being generally strong don’t often affect my collecting reality. But, it would sure be nice to hear about those submarkets so I don’t choke on a price the next time Albert posts something (and then see a comparable page go for even more on HA). 

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On 9/23/2022 at 1:50 PM, RBerman said:

Watching the anime/manga auction today, I saw a new bid type. Usually there's just "internet" and "Heritage Live" but today I also saw "floor." What does that mean? Is it the opposite of a chandelier bid? I guess "Heritage Live" bid refers to the use of the Heritage web site's live feed section. What is "internet" apart from that?

Internet means a bid submitted online prior to the live session and not using the Heritage Live system of proxy bids. 

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