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Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1950's. (1957) Jack Kirby's Marvel Age has already begun!
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331 posts in this topic

On 7/20/2022 at 11:23 PM, sfcityduck said:

And the supporting facts for these assertions are ...? 

That’s what Jack said. 

On 7/20/2022 at 11:23 PM, sfcityduck said:

Marvel was down to 8 monthly slots. Do you really think that Goodman wasn't making the decisions? 

According to Stan, all Goodman wanted was a couple of Westerns. 

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On 7/20/2022 at 8:58 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

 
Quote

 

   On 7/20/2022 at 8:23 PM, sfcityduck said:

And the supporting facts for these assertions are ...? 

 

 

That’s what Jack said. 

 

Jack said a lot of things. Some of them are really absurd. I can't wait until you get to the whole who created Spiderman controversy. My guess is you'll side with Kirby against Ditko.

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On 7/20/2022 at 11:57 PM, bronze_rules said:

I don't really have a bone to pick here, but I do wonder if all the writing was Kirby's, how come none of his later DC work had the same quality? It could be because he was older, or maybe it was missing Stan.

There are many of us who feel Jack’s New Gods was the pinnacle of his creative work. Most people focus on a handful of weird dialogue in the stories, but 90+% of it was pretty straight forward. 
 

It certainly DID lack Stan’s over emotive, hold the readers hand through the story wiseazz dialogue. But for some of us we see that as a positive. 

On 7/20/2022 at 11:57 PM, bronze_rules said:

I tend to think of Stan's genius as turning comics into long continuous soap operas with cliffhanger endings. Whereas non marvel stuff was mostly one or two shot issues, without much character arcs or buildups. Kirby was an innovative genius no doubt, and that does clearly show in his later DC work, but I think he doesn't shine as much in the long character driven soap opera elements like Stan did.

I think that’s a great question.

Did it come from Stan?

Jack spent 9+ years doing Romance comics for Crestwood and John Romita spent 7 years doing Romance comics for DC. 
 

In the Ditko writing era (ASM #24-38 and all of Dr. Strange), it didn’t really have it as much - which makes sense because Ditko hadn’t done much previously. Though he did try…
 

Stan’s experience writing romance is minimal… Millie wasn’t it and Pearl wasn’t it and Showgirls certainly wasn’t it…

If Stan was telling Romita just “bring back the Rhino”, how much credit does he really deserve for the soap opera aspects of it?

I would certainly say in the dialogue of it, … it’s pretty standard comic book melodrama. Maybe it felt new for that generation or Stan emphasized it in a way that made it stand out… I tend to like that part of it too… just again, I think it’s just as dependent on the artist for the success of it, because they were essentially writing it. 

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On 7/20/2022 at 8:55 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

He wrote the same dialogue he’d been writing in Millie the Model. It wasn’t ground breaking. BUT it hadn’t been done with a creative artist on par with Kirby or Ditko or in Superhero’s. 
Then again, Kirby’s characters bickered with each other in Challengers of the Unknown AND even more so in Race for the Moon though. 

He didn’t write scripts. 

I thought it was Stan’s dialogue too? You mean Kirby’s energetic art and fresh writing style and Lee’s zippy dialogue. 

 

Stan did not write full scripts. He did write the dialogue. The person who does that is often called the scripter or writer. You know that. 

In any event, yes, I mean that the combination of energetic art and Lee's dialogue created a comic unlike anything seen before. Kirby couldn't write that kind of dialogue. He never did it before or after his main stint on Marvel superhero books. His writing is ponderous.

Challengers doesn't read like a Marvel superhero book. It reads like a DC adventure book. Which is exactly what it was. The scripting on Challengers was solid. The book is an above average example of the genre. Not as good as Danger Trail in my view but entertaining enough. DC comics generally had well written books. The Wood brothers were solid writers, which is why Kirby hired them for his shot at a syndicated cartoon.

I get that you think no one deserves any credit but Kirby but your view ignores that the creative process often thrives the most when synergy exists.

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On 7/20/2022 at 9:17 PM, Prince Namor said:

There are many of us who feel Jack’s New Gods was the pinnacle of his creative work. Most people focus on a handful of weird dialogue in the stories, but 90+% of it was pretty straight forward. 
 

It certainly DID lack Stan’s over emotive, hold the readers hand through the story wiseazz dialogue. But for some of us we see that as a positive. 

I think that’s a great question.

Did it come from Stan?

Jack spent 9+ years doing Romance comics for Crestwood and John Romita spent 7 years doing Romance comics for DC. 
 

In the Ditko writing era (ASM #24-38 and all of Dr. Strange), it didn’t really have it as much - which makes sense because Ditko hadn’t done much previously. Though he did try…
 

Stan’s experience writing romance is minimal… Millie wasn’t it and Pearl wasn’t it and Showgirls certainly wasn’t it…

If Stan was telling Romita just “bring back the Rhino”, how much credit does he really deserve for the soap opera aspects of it?

I would certainly say in the dialogue of it, … it’s pretty standard comic book melodrama. Maybe it felt new for that generation or Stan emphasized it in a way that made it stand out… I tend to like that part of it too… just again, I think it’s just as dependent on the artist for the success of it, because they were essentially writing it. 

All good points. I'd have to go back and research some of this, as I'm just speaking off the cuff. But even if he handed over the writing to them, I do think he had an editorial hand in shaping the outcomes. He was passionate about syncing all the stories, characters, and universe together, and making them exciting, much like modern Marvel films. Remember how staff would regale the stories of Stan jumping on the table and acting out the scenes? I tend to believe that, and that alone makes him more of a creative artist than a just a greedy leader to me. And I'd read his writing in bullpens, that had the same feel of excitement to me as the comics themselves. I saw him as someone who truly cared about the Marvel method. Like any leader though, I'd agree that he hoarded a lot of the credit and rewards, but I don't see him as many other leaders that get credit and literally do nothing but push their workers like slaves.

I read interviews like Busema (both) and see them as just looking at it as a job. They were happy to have the job, and didn't complain much about the rewards. I also understand and relate to the feeling of artists who see their work making huge rewards for others, while they get a pittance-- it's the same in most creative fields. I think that comic artists are lucky to own a lot of their work (IP) nowadays. It sure isn't the case in other high-tech fields.

I'm not that into golden age stuff, but I have to say I recently read the old Black Knight series in Masterworks (and those were fantastic and well written stories, much like movie dramas, IMO). Now I don't know enough about Black Knight before that, but if Stan wrote those, that was some pretty good character and drama storytelling to me. I did also notice gcd had a lot of empty names under --------script writer. Maybe someone else wrote the bulk of them.

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On 7/20/2022 at 9:17 PM, Prince Namor said:

There are many of us who feel Jack’s New Gods was the pinnacle of his creative work. Most people focus on a handful of weird dialogue in the stories, but 90+% of it was pretty straight forward. 

Many is still a small percentage of overall comic fans. I don't know anyone who believes New Gods is Kirby's top work. I view it as being past his prime. I'd probably rate Boy's Ranch higher than New Gods. I'd definitely rate the first 60 or so issues of FF way above New Gods. So far above that New Gods would look like an ant. Do you really feel New Gods is Kirby's top work? Honestly?

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On 7/21/2022 at 12:14 AM, sfcityduck said:

Jack said a lot of things. Some of them are really absurd.

So’d Stan. Like “I created it all and then just assigned it to the artists.”

It doesn’t get more absurd than that. 

On 7/21/2022 at 12:14 AM, sfcityduck said:

I can't wait until you get to the whole who created Spiderman controversy. My guess is you'll side with Kirby against Ditko.

You don’t know the story?

The unused Silver Spider pages for Fawcett? Eventually becoming the Fly at Archie? Kirby doing 5 pages and showing them to Ditko who tells him “That looks like The Fly from Archie Comics” before changing it into what it was to become? You don’t know this story?

Jack introduced the concept to Stan because of what he and Joe Simon had previously did. 

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On 7/21/2022 at 12:23 AM, sfcityduck said:

Stan did not write full scripts. He did write the dialogue. The person who does that is often called the scripter or writer. You know that. 

The person who just writes dialogue to a finished story is NOT called the writer. And much of the dialogue WAS written by Stan and Steve in the margins. 

On 7/21/2022 at 12:23 AM, sfcityduck said:

I get that you think no one deserves any credit but Kirby

Didn’t say that. 

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On 7/21/2022 at 12:28 AM, bronze_rules said:

All good points. I'd have to go back and research some of this, as I'm just speaking off the cuff. But even if, he handed over the writing to them, I do think he had an editorial hand in shaping the outcomes. He was passionate about syncing all the stories together, and making them exciting, much like modern Marvel films. Remember how staff would regale the stories of Stan jumping on the table and acting out the scenes? I tend to believe that, and that alone makes him more of a creative artist than a just a greedy leader to me. And I'd read his writing in bullpens, that had the same feel of excitement to me as the comics themselves. I saw him as someone who truly cared about the Marvel method. Like any leader though, I'd agree that he hoarded a lot of the credit and rewards, but I don't see him as many other leaders that get credit and literally do nothing but push their workers like slaves.

I read interviews like Busema (both) and see them as just looking at it as a job. They were happy to have the job, and didn't complain much about the rewards. I also understand and relate to the feeling of artists who see their work making huge rewards for others, while they get a pittance-- it's the same in most creative fields. I think that artists are lucky to own a lot of their work (IP) nowadays. It sure isn't the case in other high-tech fields.

I'm not that into golden age stuff, but I have to say I recently read the old Black Knight series in Masterworks (and those were fantastic and well written stories, much like movie dramas, IMO). Now I don't know enough about Black Knight before that, but if Stan wrote those, that was some pretty good character and drama storytelling to me. I did also notice gcd had a lot of empty names under ------script writer. Maybe someone else wrote the bulk of them.

Oh Stan was good at what he did. The Marvel Universe wouldn’t have been the same without him. 
 

And yes, someone else wrote those Black Knight stories… Stan was signing everything he did by that point. 

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On 7/20/2022 at 9:17 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

I would certainly say in the dialogue of it, … it’s pretty standard comic book melodrama. Maybe it felt new for that generation or Stan emphasized it in a way that made it stand out… I tend to like that part of it too… just again, I think it’s just as dependent on the artist for the success of it, because they were essentially writing it. 

Back when Marvel started there was no standard superhero melodrama. That was Marvel's chief innovation. Having a guy shrink was just a new iteration of Doll Man. Having a guy stretch was just a new iteration of Plastic Man. Pretty much every Marvel hero was unoriginal in concept and a retread of prior ideas (Thor the God of Thunder? Hercules?). But the energy of the art and more sophisticated dialogue made the concepts work. Characters who voiced insecurities and had bad days and melodrama was a new concept. 

Since you are obviously not of "that generation" in what decade did you discover Marvel and Kirby?

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On 7/21/2022 at 12:29 AM, sfcityduck said:

Many is still a small percentage of overall comic fans. I don't know anyone who believes New Gods is Kirby's top work. I view it as being past his prime. I'd probably rate Boy's Ranch higher than New Gods. I'd definitely rate the first 60 or so issues of FF way above New Gods. So far above that New Gods would look like an ant. Do you really feel New Gods is Kirby's top work? Honestly?

Yes. Honestly. 
I know it’s hard to believe for many Marvel Zombies who never learned to read a comic through the artwork, but the New Gods is amazing. 
Kirbys FF 40-55 and his run on Thor during the same time period rank just as high to me, but New Gods burst out of the gate from the start and never let up. 
It’s been reprinted 7 times since 1984 and 6 times in the last 24 years. It has a lasting appeal that is growing. 

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On 7/20/2022 at 9:34 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

You don’t know the story?

 

I know the stories. 

Jack didn't create the Spiderman which won Marvel readers' hearts. The Fly was not Spiderman precursor, at least not in any meaningful way.

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On 7/20/2022 at 9:49 PM, Prince Namor said:

Yes. Honestly. 
I know it’s hard to believe for many Marvel Zombies who never learned to read a comic through the artwork, but the New Gods is amazing. 
Kirbys FF 40-55 and his run on Thor during the same time period rank just as high to me, but New Gods burst out of the gate from the start and never let up. 
It’s been reprinted 7 times since 1984 and 6 times in the last 24 years. It has a lasting appeal that is growing. 

I'm not sure why you are obsessed with reprints. X-Men 137 has been reprinted around 20 times since 1984, and I'm sure it is not the most reprinted Marvel story.

And I'm more than a little surprised about your comment about "Marvel Zombies," given the artwork they would be reading in the 1960s was mostly Kirby and those he influenced. 

Me, I like pages with no words and I view Master Race as the seminal story with Miller's early DD as a great iteration of that style. Kurtzman's Corpse on the Imjin isn't a bad story either. 

 

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On 7/20/2022 at 9:37 PM, Prince Namor said:

The person who just writes dialogue to a finished story is NOT called the writer.

Really? Because the guy who comes up with the plot of a story is generally called the plotter and the guy who writes the actual words said by the characters generally gets a -script or writer credit.

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On 7/21/2022 at 12:50 AM, sfcityduck said:

I know the stories. 

Jack didn't create the Spiderman which won Marvel readers' hearts. The Fly was not Spiderman precursor, at least not in any meaningful way.

The Hulk wasn’t the Hulk we know until Ditko reworked that character either. 
 

Kirby saw it as he brought the idea to Stan and Ditko reworked it. In the interview he states this. 
 

From the Kirby museum:

“The very last costumed super-hero book that Kirby produced, prior to Marvel, featured an insect hero able to climb walls and ceilings; had super strength, the agility of a bug, and, amazingly, an extra sense that warned him of danger. Steve Ditko has said that all of this was in place before he got involved. If so, then what was changed from Kirby’s Spider-Man? It seems all the changes were made to Peter Parker, so a full half of the premise remained the same. Ditko made no changes to Spider-Man.”

https://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/2019/01/07/looking-for-the-awesome-19/
 

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On 7/21/2022 at 1:08 AM, sfcityduck said:

Really? Because the guy who comes up with the plot of a story is generally called the plotter and the guy who writes the actual words said by the characters generally gets a --script or writer credit.

Then why didn’t Stan give Jack and Steve writer credit? They wrote much of the dialogue in the margins. 

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On 7/20/2022 at 9:17 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

In the Ditko writing era (ASM #24-38 and all of Dr. Strange), it didn’t really have it as much - which makes sense because Ditko hadn’t done much previously. Though he did try…

Spiderman 1-23 had romantic melodrama. Remember Betty Brant and Liz Allen? If it did not come from Ditko, where did it come from? 

 

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On 7/21/2022 at 1:02 AM, sfcityduck said:

I'm not sure why you are obsessed with reprints. X-Men 137 has been reprinted around 20 times since 1984, and I'm sure it is not the most reprinted Marvel story.

It shows it’s lasting appeal. 

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On 7/21/2022 at 1:17 AM, sfcityduck said:

Spiderman 1-23 had romantic melodrama. Remember Betty Brant and Liz Allen? If it did not come from Ditko, where did it come from? 

 

It didn’t come from “Let’s have the Human Torch guest star!” synopsis’. 

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On 7/20/2022 at 10:16 PM, Prince Namor said:

Then why didn’t Stan give Jack and Steve writer credit? They wrote much of the dialogue in the margins. 

We can only speculate. 

I've seen the original art for AF 15. I don't recall seeing dialogue in the margins. Frankly, I don't think there was room for all of the dialogue in the margins SA art sheets. As a comparison, I bought this page of original art back when I first started collecting comics for $75 and I remember carefully scraping off white out to see the margin notes:

 Uncanny X-Men 125 p2 by John Byrne Comic Art

The margin note from Byrne to Austin could barely contain enough letters to get a single balloon of dialogue. (Too bad I sold it.)

Do have an example of the margin dialogue for ASM?

Edited by sfcityduck
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