Overstreet: Isn’t it time to separate price variants from mainstream keys in the Bronze Age Top 25? 1 1

[bronze johnny]

There’s no reason to categorize price variants with mainstream keys in Overstreet’s Top 25 Bronze Age books. Variants should have their own category and weren’t available at most newsstands back in the day. How many people had the opportunity to purchase great books like the 35 cent variant Star Wars 1 from the newsstand when it came out? The variants are scarcer and more valuable but they are not mainstream books. If the people at Overstreet want to keep up with the times, it’s important to provide as much accuracy as possible. 

[valiantman]

Just curious what you would do with Cerebus #1?  It wasn't available at the newsstand either, correct?

[Spider-Variant]

On 7/23/2022 at 2:50 PM, bronze johnny said:

How many people had the opportunity to purchase great books like the 35 cent variant Star Wars 1 from the newsstand when it came out?

I remember buying two 35 cent spider-man variants off the stands, both from the Memphis distribution sites.

I used to log the cost of my comics, and was so confused as a young boy when the price went from 30 cents up to 35 cents then back down to 30 cents.  The 35 cent issue was the variant obviously.

But overall, I agree with you point about separating them.

[bronze johnny]

On 7/23/2022 at 2:57 PM, valiantman said:

Just curious what you would do with Cerebus #1?  It wasn't available at the newsstand either, correct?

Evidently, price variants were available on newsstands as Spider-Variant anecdotally points out. How many is a question I can’t answer but my anecdotal guess is that they were much scarcer. That being said, Cerebus as we know was an independently published comic book that wasn’t available to the masses of comic book readers in 1977. The question for the Bronze Age is whether comic books that weren’t available to the masses of comic book collectors should be categorized with mainstream books listed Overstreet’s Top 25 Bronze Age books? Cerebus 1 would not be categorized with mainstream books like a Giant Size X-Men 1.

[OtherEric]

I feel the time for the price variants to be separated from the main list was several years ago.  Including them creates a skewed picture of the most wanted Bronze books.

[jdandns]

Looks like it's just the Star Wars 1-4 and Iron Fist 14 variants, whose regular priced issues wouldn't have made the list, so it's still a Top 20 list even without those.

Maybe next year, they can do a Top 30 for Bronze, which would allow 5 more non-variant books to be added to the lower echelon of the list.

 

[Mr.Fantastic]

I remember buying several price variants off spinner racks in the 70s.  Of course, at the time I had no idea they were price variants, or destined to become more valuable than the one I paid a nickel less for the previous week.  I didn't even know they were valuable price variants until years later when I went to sell them and someone pointed out the difference in sales price.  

But, I agree. Take them out of the mainstream pricing and let them have their own category.

[shadroch]

So you folks want a list of top twenty books that doesn't include some of the most expensive books? The .35 cent Star Wars variants had wider newstand sales than there were copies of Cerebus 1 printed, so if we start eliminating valuable books because they weren't universally available you are going to end up with some pretty incomplete lists.  I like to think the idea is to provide more information, not less. 

[Brock]

I can certainly share this information (as an advisor) with the folks at Overstreet, but I think @shadroch hits the nail on the head. This is meant to be a list of the 25 most valuable Bronze Age comics… it says so on the label, in a sense.

It sounds like some of you just want a list of the top 25 non-variant Bronze Age comics, possibly with or without Cerebus included. This is also a fine list, it’s just not the one that Overstreet prepared. Everyone is equally welcome to create their own lists, and share them however they want.

[bronze johnny]

On 7/24/2022 at 9:39 AM, shadroch said:

So you folks want a list of top twenty books that doesn't include some of the most expensive books? The .35 cent Star Wars variants had wider newstand sales than there were copies of Cerebus 1 printed, so if we start eliminating valuable books because they weren't universally available you are going to end up with some pretty incomplete lists.  I like to think the idea is to provide more information, not less. 

Wrong. The price variants are not mainstream books and shouldn’t be defined, nor classified as such. As far as distribution, price variants were not as widely available on the newsstands at the time. Keep in mind that while the direct market was in its infancy, access to comic books during the Bronze (unlike the decades that followed) was primarily afforded to readers and collectors via the the newsstand. Moreover, there are plenty of collectors that I personally know who don’t collect price variant books. The idea is to clarify what a mainstream book is and what it’s not when it comes to collecting. Overstreet is conflating mainstream books with those that are not. Based on your logic, pedigree books (which were not at certain times available to the masses of comic book collectors and in the case of one, still isn’t) should be treated equally with copies that do not have a historic provenance. That should not be the case and Overstreet needs to make this clear in the 53rd Edition next year.

[bronze johnny]

On 7/24/2022 at 9:54 AM, Brock said:

I can certainly share this information (as an advisor) with the folks at Overstreet, but I think @shadroch hits the nail on the head. This is meant to be a list of the 25 most valuable Bronze Age comics… it says so on the label, in a sense.

It sounds like some of you just want a list of the top 25 non-variant Bronze Age comics, possibly with or without Cerebus included. This is also a fine list, it’s just not the one that Overstreet prepared. Everyone is equally welcome to create their own lists, and share them however they want.

No, I want an accurate list that doesn’t conflate books collected by a small group of collectors with those that are the focus of most collectors. So let’s include pedigree copies for Gold and Silver. Perhaps we should look at the underground comics and include them on the list? There are Haight Ashbury pedigree underground copies that may place accordingly on the Silver and Bronze lists. 

[shadroch]

Where do you think the variants were distributed?  On newsstands. 

I know plenty of collectors who don't collect DC books, or Charleton books. Are their opinions any less valid than the ones who don't collect variants?

[bronze johnny]

On 7/24/2022 at 11:10 AM, shadroch said:

Where do you think the variants were distributed?  On newsstands. 

I know plenty of collectors who don't collect DC books, or Charleton books. Are their opinions any less valid than the ones who don't collect variants?

Yes, they were distributed on newsstands and can you verify that they were distributed as widely as the lower priced copy? These books are valuable because they were extremely limited. It’s their relative scarcity that makes them valuable. They are not equivalent to the 30 cent copies. Are you going to continue with your usual sophistry? 

[bronze johnny]

It’s disingenuous to compare collecting books published by other companies like Charlton to my point. The price variants are the same exact copy as their lesser priced book. The only difference is the price. The story and covers are the same (with a different price). The ads inside are the same. 

[shadroch]

I'm not sure, will your questions keep lowering the bar? Marvel price variants are expensive because people seek them out and pay big money for them. The hobby has shown that many collectors will pay more for a copy of a book distributed in San Antonio with a higher cover than they will for a copy sold on a New york newstand. It's been that way since the mid 90s when the variants became bettewr known.  I remember one person saying these would prove to be the most sought after books of the era and most others mocking him.

Star Wars 1 (35 cent version) is easily the most sought after book of the era.  I'm not sure why anyone would want a list of the most expensive books of an era that doesn't actually list the most valuable books of the era, or why you would seek to compare books that were distributed by the thousands with a pedigree copy but if that is your agenda, good luck with it. 

[bronze johnny]

On 7/24/2022 at 11:24 AM, shadroch said:

I'm not sure, will your questions keep lowering the bar? Marvel price variants are expensive because people seek them out and pay big money for them. The hobby has shown that many collectors will pay more for a copy of a book distributed in San Antonio with a higher cover than they will for a copy sold on a New york newstand. It's been that way since the mid 90s when the variants became bettewr known.  I remember one person saying these would prove to be the most sought after books of the era and most others mocking him.

Star Wars 1 (35 cent version) is easily the most sought after book of the era.  I'm not sure why anyone would want a list of the most expensive books of an era that doesn't actually list the most valuable books of the era, or why you would seek to compare books that were distributed by the thousands with a pedigree copy but if that is your agenda, good luck with it. 

There you go again with comments like my wanting to “lower the bar.” Marvel Price Variants are expensive because they are scarce and there are some collectors who will pay big money for them due to their relative scarcity. The “just because it’s been done that way since the 90s” argument doesn’t make it right. Lore shouldn’t determine how we should classify books. You want to argue that the Marvel price variants would sell for the same prices as the 30 cent copies if they were as easily available? Collectors want correct categorization and conflating mainstream books with those that are not contradicts this. Don’t misconstrue my point about pedigree copies and the point I was making about them. There’s a line to draw and once it’s crossed, questions remain concerning how far we should go when it comes to classifying books. Pedigree copies are even scarcer books than price variants and should have their own category. This is about having a system of classification that avoids conflating scarcer books with those that are more readily available. Having a list of the most expensive mainstream books of an era along with a separate list for the scarcer price variants improves the Overstreet Price Guide. This improvement helps collectors and that’s what the Guide should be about. 

[Brock]

On 7/24/2022 at 11:24 AM, shadroch said:

I'm not sure why anyone would want a list of the most expensive books of an era that doesn't actually list the most valuable books of the era

I think this is the simplest summation of the discussion.

On 7/24/2022 at 11:49 AM, bronze johnny said:

This is about having a system of classification that avoids conflating scarcer books with those that are more readily available.

There are lot of people in this hobby who love curation and categorization, and more power to them. From my perspective, the way that the folks at Overstreet choose to curate and categorize their list makes sense, and I’m not as convinced by your approach to categorization, but that’s just a personal opinion. As always, the age of the Internet allows us all you to create, curate, categorize - and publish - anything you want.

[shadroch]

I don't think how the books were distributed fifty years ago matters. I'd rather list books based on today's market than start categorizing books based on their origin. If the thirty five cent Star Wars 1 is the most expensive book of its era, any list of valuable books that doesn't list it is incomplete, at best.

Would you omit Motion Picture Funnies from the most valuable list as it was distributed differently?

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by shadroch

[bronze johnny]

On 7/24/2022 at 12:25 PM, Brock said:

I think this is the simplest summation of the discussion.

There are lot of people in this hobby who love curation and categorization, and more power to them. From my perspective, the way that the folks at Overstreet choose to curate and categorize their list makes sense, and I’m not as convinced by your approach to categorization, but that’s just a personal opinion. As always, the age of the Internet allows us all you to create, curate, categorize - and publish - anything you want.

The only difference between a 30 cent copy of Star Wars 1 from the 35 cent version is the price. Otherwise, it’s the same book. The difference is in the scarcity that’s exclusively attributed to the number of copies printed and distributed. The 35 cent version of Star Wars 1 is only valuable because of its scarcity. There’s no other reason why. To compare this book to Giant Size X-Men 1 in terms of value alone doesn’t tell the whole story. Giant Size X-Men 1 is more valuable than the mainstream book that is the 30 cent version of Star Wars 1. The price variant exceeds that value of the first appearance of the new X-Men but the majority of Bronze Age collectors will seek GS X-Men 1 before the 35 cent price variant Star Wars 1 when the 30 cent version is readily available. The price variant collector represents what percentage of the overall collector’s market? I bet it’s relatively small enough to define price variant collecting as a specialty market. We don’t categorize Shelby Mustangs with base Mustangs when it comes to comparing them in terms of collectible value. Very few people buy and collect Shelby Mustangs. Overstreet’s categorization however, would place Shelby Mustangs with every other Mustang in terms of value and that shouldn’t be the case. 

Edited July 24, 2022 by bronze johnny

[bronze johnny]

On 7/24/2022 at 12:27 PM, shadroch said:

I don't think how the books were distributed fifty years ago matters. I'd rather list books based on today's market than start categorizing books based on their origin. If the thirty five cent Star Wars 1 is the most expensive book of its era, any list of valuable books that doesn't list it is incomplete, at best.

Would you omit Motion Picture Funniest from the most valuable list as it was distributed differently?

 

 

 

I disagree. Distribution 50 years ago does matter, especially when the Direct Market had not yet made its impact. My argument isn’t just about based on its origin. You keep calling the price variant for Star Wars 1 the most valuable comic for its era- what’s the most valuable Bronze Age comic book to have sold at auction? Care to guess? Please don’t compare Motion Picture Funniest with what I’m arguing for Bronze Age books. That was an entirely different era when it comes to collecting and defining value. It’s also the first appearance of a major Timely character and not a price variant of the same comic book. By the way, I don’t have a problem placing a book like Motion Picture Funniest in a separate category from the mainstream Golden Age books. I also want to see a category for Golden Age Ashcans and Romance books.