Overstreet: Isn’t it time to separate price variants from mainstream keys in the Bronze Age Top 25? 1 1

[shadroch]

I want to be thirty again, as long as we are making wish lists. 

The direct market didn't really exist back then, but how does that factor onto this?

[bronze johnny]

On 7/24/2022 at 1:05 PM, shadroch said:

I want to be thirty again, as long as we are making wish lists. 

The direct market didn't really exist back then, but how does that factor onto this?

You think the price variants would have been so scarce had the Direct Market co-existed on a greater scale with newsstand venues? 

[NP_Gresham]

On 7/23/2022 at 11:50 AM, bronze johnny said:

There’s no reason to categorize price variants with mainstream keys in Overstreet’s Top 25 Bronze Age books. Variants should have their own category and weren’t available at most newsstands back in the day. How many people had the opportunity to purchase great books like the 35 cent variant Star Wars 1 from the newsstand when it came out? The variants are scarcer and more valuable but they are not mainstream books. If the people at Overstreet want to keep up with the times, it’s important to provide as much accuracy as possible. 

Overstreet?

Is that still a thing?

I thought that went out with Wizard and their nonsense prices.

Now if we’re talking the grading guide, that would be relevant

[Ant-Man]

Great topic with lots of tangents. In no particular order:

In previous years, there were other price variants that qualified for the list, but Overstreet will often miss a book or three. I have raised to their attention, but it takes time to get things corrected. Not sure if this year will be any different.

The variants were distributed in seven(?) test markets, so I can understand the view to separate (like an error may be treated in the card/coin/stamp hobby), even though these were intentional.

I don’t pretend to know how Cerebus was distributed, but if it was the same for all markets, I don’t think it follows the same fact pattern (giveaways, mail-ins, etc., were never on newsstands either). For the record, I think the aardvark qualifies.

Pedigrees are labels that were assigned by the hobby to certain collections. Personally, I don’t think the potential premium associated with a pedigree copy of any book should be considered for these type of lists (similar to copies signed after distribution).

I think cover variants could one day be the next type of comic that warrants this type of discussion. This concept did not exist in the first few decades of the hobby, but you can’t deny their existence or the prices being realized in the top tier. Distribution is the same for everyone if you’re willing to pay/order enough. “Purists” (my term) will often look at the ‘base’ model of whatever they collect and not consider errors, variants, multiple covers, later printings, etc.. I’m in the purist camp, but I’m not upset by the inclusion of the price variants. I think it’s interesting and informative to see how they stack up against the base models.

If the entire list were price variants, I’d probably be singing a different tune.

[shadroch]

On 7/24/2022 at 11:08 AM, bronze johnny said:

You think the price variants would have been so scarce had the Direct Market co-existed on a greater scale with newsstand venues? 

They'd have been scarcer but since there was no direct market, why even think about it?

Now if the MH2 horde had included pallets of them or if  Robert Bell had bought from a place these were distributed- that might have changed the game.

Instead, the unsold variants sat around and got mingled in. When I found out I had a bunch, I  traced them back to a big backorder I'd placed with a guy from the midwest. He was selling Marvels by the pound. I doubt he even knew of the variants, I didnt.

[shadroch]

On 7/24/2022 at 11:28 AM, NP_Gresham said:

Overstreet?

Is that still a thing?

I thought that went out with Wizard and their nonsense prices.

Now if we’re talking the grading guide, that would be relevant

Overstreet sells a lot of copies to civilians, and is the introduction to the hobby for many people. It has limited use to hard core collectors but it still sells quite a few copies.  Like Playboy, I buy it for the articles. As far as pricing, it can be handy to see if book is broken out from its peers.

I get a few hours entertainment reading the ads and reports. I particularly like to follow the advertising patterns as dealers come and go.

[bronze johnny]

On 7/24/2022 at 1:31 PM, shadroch said:

They'd have been scarcer but since there was no direct market, why even think about it?

Now if the MH2 horde had included pallets of them or if  Robert Bell had bought from a place these were distributed- that might have changed the game.

Instead, the unsold variants sat around and got mingled in. When I found out I had a bunch, I  traced them back to a big backorder I'd placed with a guy from the midwest. He was selling Marvels by the pound. I doubt he even knew of the variants, I didnt.

Disagree. They would not have been scarcer without the Direct Market. 

[bronze johnny]

On 7/24/2022 at 1:30 PM, Ant-Man said:

Great topic with lots of tangents. In no particular order:

In previous years, there were other price variants that qualified for the list, but Overstreet will often miss a book or three. I have raised to their attention, but it takes time to get things corrected. Not sure if this year will be any different.

The variants were distributed in seven(?) test markets, so I can understand the view to separate (like an error may be treated in the card/coin/stamp hobby), even though these were intentional.

I don’t pretend to know how Cerebus was distributed, but if it was the same for all markets, I don’t think it follows the same fact pattern (giveaways, mail-ins, etc., were never on newsstands either). For the record, I think the aardvark qualifies.

Pedigrees are labels that were assigned by the hobby to certain collections. Personally, I don’t think the potential premium associated with a pedigree copy of any book should be considered for these type of lists (similar to copies signed after distribution).

I think cover variants could one day be the next type of comic that warrants this type of discussion. This concept did not exist in the first few decades of the hobby, but you can’t deny their existence or the prices being realized in the top tier. Distribution is the same for everyone if you’re willing to pay/order enough. “Purists” (my term) will often look at the ‘base’ model of whatever they collect and not consider errors, variants, multiple covers, later printings, etc.. I’m in the purist camp, but I’m not upset by the inclusion of the price variants. I think it’s interesting and informative to see how they stack up against the base models.

If the entire list were price variants, I’d probably be singing a different tune.

Thanks for sharing your insight. Agree with your points and I’m a purist who would love to see the price variants get their own list. Regarding the Aardvark - I really don’t have an issue with him because Cerebus 1 is a unique book that is historic despite it not being available to the masses. It’s not the same book with a different prices that was intentionally distributed to limited markets as you point out. Sim did what he could to get it out there. As for the price variants, Marvel was the dominant publisher of that era and had the resources Sim didn’t have. Moreover, the internet didn’t exist back then to pick one up on eBay if the Star Wars 1 35 center wasn’t distributed in your market. You’d have to wait for someone to advertise it in the CBG and the Star Wars craze immediately impacted prices on the secondary market. Finally, if Overstreet wants to continue to conflate price variants with mainstream books then I strongly recommend that he qualify the list with a footnote on what the single most valuable Bronze Age book to come to auction is…and it’s not a variant if my memory serves me correctly. 

[bronze johnny]

On 7/24/2022 at 1:28 PM, NP_Gresham said:

Overstreet?

Is that still a thing?

I thought that went out with Wizard and their nonsense prices.

Now if we’re talking the grading guide, that would be relevant

Still has relevance and I place great emphasis on the word “Guide” when it comes to pricing. I’m from the school that believes the OSPG is one of a number of sources to use when trying to assess a book’s historical significance and value. There’s a lot of great stuff in the Guide and it’s part of the history of comic book collecting. I never cared for Wizard’s price guide but had fun picking up a monthly price guide. CBG. Wizard. Overstreet Fan. Some good stuff back in the day!

[shadroch]

On 7/24/2022 at 11:43 AM, bronze johnny said:

Disagree. They would not have been scarcer without the Direct Market. 

Do the math.  A typical Marvel had a print run around 300,000 and sales of about 140,000.  The test variants were 3-5% percent of the run. Lets go with 5% so we can say around 15,000 variants were printed. 

Fast forward ten years, where news stand and direct are about even. Newsstand sales are half what they were, so now they are printing 70,000 direct and 150,000 news stand copies.  5% of the reduced 150,000 is 7,500.  

Why you think more news stand variants would exist if the direct market had existed needs some explaining.

[bronze johnny]

On 7/24/2022 at 3:20 PM, shadroch said:

Do the math.  A typical Marvel had a print run around 300,000 and sales of about 140,000.  The test variants were 3-5% percent of the run. Lets go with 5% so we can say around 15,000 variants were printed. 

Fast forward ten years, where news stand and direct are about even. Newsstand sales are half what they were, so now they are printing 70,000 direct and 150,000 news stand copies.  5% of the reduced 150,000 is 7,500.  

Why you think more news stand variants would exist if the direct market had existed needs some explaining.

Can you share the source for your numbers?

[bronze johnny]

However you try to surmise it, the price variants owe their value exclusively to their scarcity that’s attributed to limited distribution. They aren’t mainstream comic books. 

[shadroch]

On 7/24/2022 at 1:59 PM, bronze johnny said:

However you try to surmise it, the price variants owe their value exclusively to their scarcity that’s attributed to limited distribution. They aren’t mainstream comic books. 

Okay. Has anyone disputed their value is due to their scarcity?

[shadroch]

On 7/24/2022 at 1:53 PM, bronze johnny said:

Can you share the source for your numbers?

Years of study, mostly using the annual circulation reports.

[bronze johnny]

On 7/24/2022 at 4:07 PM, shadroch said:

Years of study, mostly using the annual circulation reports.

I’ve studied for years too. Can you please share your sources?

[bronze johnny]

On 7/24/2022 at 4:05 PM, shadroch said:

Okay. Has anyone disputed their value is due to their scarcity?

Would they have more value than the 30 cents copies if they weren’t scarcer?

[bronze johnny]

Btw, I’m still waiting for you to tell me what the most valuable Bronze Age book to come to auction is.

[shadroch]

On 7/24/2022 at 2:08 PM, bronze johnny said:

I’ve studied for years too. Can you please share your sources?

I just did.

[shadroch]

On 7/24/2022 at 2:11 PM, bronze johnny said:

Btw, I’m still waiting for you to tell me what the most valuable Bronze Age book to come to auction is.

Why are you waiting for me to answer a question like that? In the first place, I neither know or care and I have no idea what it has to do with this. 

Edited July 24, 2022 by shadroch

[bronze johnny]

On 7/24/2022 at 4:13 PM, shadroch said:

I just did.

Thanks! I’m going to use “I just did”next time someone calls me out