ASM 300 Cooling down . . .
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99 posts in this topic

On 9/5/2022 at 9:33 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I wonder how heartbroken newsstand collectors would be to find out that if direct markets were printed first, when they changed the black plate to the barcode art it's now a reprint? Technically the stoppage and plate change to alter the book could constitute a revision...

Wait what? I thought all comics were Newsstand and the direct market started in mid 80's?

Newsstand barcode predates spidey head, so what am I missing?

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On 9/5/2022 at 8:45 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Wait what? I thought all comics were Newsstand and the direct market started in mid 80's?

Newsstand barcode predates spidey head, so what am I missing?

‘Lorider is correct - my point is that one version or the other was printed first. Either bar codes got printed first, or spidey heads got printed first - rarity of either one really doesn’t matter. What got put on press first would technically be the first print, then the press stops, they change out the black plate that has either the UPC code or spidey head, re-register everything and continue printing the rest of the run - which in other industries like book printing - might constitute as a revision or reprint.

What I’m saying is not gospel - but in my view, If everyone wants to get technical about newsstands or directs, it needs to be further discussed which came first because that is a technicality that should be addressed. And someone (like Overstreet or CGC) probably needs to weigh in. This requires more information than simple explanations of how the direct market works - they should establish the actual production methods if they are going to start calling out one being more valuable than the other.

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On 9/5/2022 at 11:46 PM, 'Lorider said:

The direct market started in the early 70s, and the first direct market only book was iirc Dazzler #1 in 1981.

I don't think so. 

Cerebus #1 was published in '77 and I can't imagine it had any distribution to newsstand...only direct distribution.

There are probably earlier examples than Cerebus #1, but its the earliest example I can think of that is not a promotional book.

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On 9/5/2022 at 10:33 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I wonder how heartbroken newsstand collectors would be to find out that if direct markets were printed first, when they changed the black plate to the barcode art it's now a reprint? Technically the stoppage and plate change to alter the book could constitute a revision...

IMHO same press run, same printing . Just a simple variation 

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On 9/6/2022 at 11:29 AM, 'Lorider said:

UGs didn't have any newsstand distribution either, Crumb was selling them from a baby buggy (shrug) What I wrote is correct in the context it was meant to be taken in.

Agreed.  I think your examples of UGs provides further validation that the direct market started well before Phil Sueling made his distribution deals with Marvel, and Dazzler #1 is NOT the 1st direct-only book

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On 9/5/2022 at 11:48 PM, Dr. Balls said:

‘Lorider is correct - my point is that one version or the other was printed first. Either bar codes got printed first, or spidey heads got printed first - rarity of either one really doesn’t matter. What got put on press first would technically be the first print, then the press stops, they change out the black plate that has either the UPC code or spidey head, re-register everything and continue printing the rest of the run - which in other industries like book printing - might constitute as a revision or reprint.

What I’m saying is not gospel - but in my view, If everyone wants to get technical about newsstands or directs, it needs to be further discussed which came first because that is a technicality that should be addressed. And someone (like Overstreet or CGC) probably needs to weigh in. This requires more information than simple explanations of how the direct market works - they should establish the actual production methods if they are going to start calling out one being more valuable than the other.

Following that line of thinking direct editions would be reprints if the issues with UK pence copies were printed first in order to get them out first, since they needed to get on a boat to Europe.

The market always decides, and it usually decides based on supply.

Edited by valiantman
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On 9/6/2022 at 10:31 AM, MAR1979 said:

IMHO same press run, same printing . Just a simple variation 

I think the argument can go both ways - that’s why I was thinking someone higher up  might need to clarify and make a determination. If Beatles fans can track down people who worked at pressing plants and get information from the 60’s, surely the big time comic players can find pressmen from the 80’s to go on record to which order UPCs and direct art was put on press.

Edit: This morning, I was thinking of the correlation between comics and records. White Label Promo records are sought after for the same reasoning (less of them than their regular release counterparts) and the records are all pressed at the same time, just with a different label affixed to the album. I suppose in that line of thinking, Newsstands and Direct are similar - one being more rare than the other - the technicality of which was printed first probably doesn't apply. So I stand corrected - I don't think it matters which came first, because it was all produced at the same time.
 

Edited by Dr. Balls
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On 9/6/2022 at 11:59 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I think the argument can go both ways - that’s why I was thinking someone higher up  might need to clarify and make a determination. If Beatles fans can track down people who worked at pressing plants and get information from the 60’s, surely the big time comic players can find pressmen from the 80’s to go on record to which order UPCs and direct art was put on press.

Edit: This morning, I was thinking of the correlation between comics and records. White Label Promo records are sought after for the same reasoning (less of them than their regular release counterparts) and the records are all pressed at the same time, just with a different label affixed to the album. I suppose in that line of thinking, Newsstands and Direct are similar - one being more rare than the other - the technicality of which was printed first probably doesn't apply. So I stand corrected - I don't think it matters which came first, because it was all produced at the same time.
 

I can see what you were saying, but honestly, even if there WAS a way to determine if they newsies or directs came first, I don't see anyone pulling at that thread at this point. The whole house of cards would come down.

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On 9/6/2022 at 2:34 PM, valiantman said:

Following that line of thinking direct editions would be reprints if the issues with UK pence copies were printed first in order to get them out first, since they needed to get on a boat to Europe.

The market always decides, and it usually decides based on supply.

And what if the Canadian price variants were actually printed first because getting them to us up here is hard in a snowstorm?  Thel ALL you other guys would own reprints!!

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On 9/5/2022 at 11:48 PM, Dr. Balls said:

‘Lorider is correct - my point is that one version or the other was printed first. Either bar codes got printed first, or spidey heads got printed first - rarity of either one really doesn’t matter. What got put on press first would technically be the first print, then the press stops, they change out the black plate that has either the UPC code or spidey head, re-register everything and continue printing the rest of the run - which in other industries like book printing - might constitute as a revision or reprint.

What I’m saying is not gospel - but in my view, If everyone wants to get technical about newsstands or directs, it needs to be further discussed which came first because that is a technicality that should be addressed. And someone (like Overstreet or CGC) probably needs to weigh in. This requires more information than simple explanations of how the direct market works - they should establish the actual production methods if they are going to start calling out one being more valuable than the other.

But it's only the covers that are different and printed separately. The vast majority of an issue was part of a single run.

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On 9/14/2022 at 10:59 AM, Bronty said:

There has to be a PRINT before there is a REprint.

The OA is not a PRINT, so the comic is not a REprint.

Just print.

Ok

Every comic made is a copy

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On 9/14/2022 at 1:01 PM, The Meta said:

Ok

Every comic made is a copy

Not exactly, right?   Only in part.   The blacklines are a copy.

Don't get me wrong, I collect OA myself more than I collect comics so I'm all for being on team OA, but comics aren't just a copy of the OA.    They are colored, manipulated, etc.

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On 9/14/2022 at 11:04 AM, Bronty said:

Not exactly, right?   Only in part.   The blacklines are a copy.

Don't get me wrong, I collect OA myself more than I collect comics so I'm all for being on team OA, but comics aren't just a copy of the OA.    They are colored, manipulated, etc.

Depends how you break it down I suppose

We can say OA is complete, once pencils are done, or we can say its complete when its approved for the press

I can go along with there being 2 pieces of OA, an inked and uninked, since generally you can get both

My point mostly was, that as comic collectors, we are generally collecting everything second hand already 

The intrinsic value is basically in the OA, regardless of how many copies are printed. Limited print runs are valuable of course, but not in the sense of what the OA is

I really wish I could afford to get into the OA game. For now I collect commissions, which are satisfying 

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