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The Maxx Aschan Received Universal Grade - 10 Others Received Qualified Grades
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80 posts in this topic

On 12/19/2022 at 4:40 PM, spreads said:
On 12/19/2022 at 12:15 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I don’t understand what’s going on here.  It was a blue 4.0

You wanted it green

Now you have it back as a 7.0 blue.???

I don't get it either.....doesn't make any sense.

Isn’t it just another screw up?  Shouldn’t it be 7.0 green?  How does a 4.0 blue go to 7.0 blue?  

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On 12/19/2022 at 5:52 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Isn’t it just another screw up?  Shouldn’t it be 7.0 green?  How does a 4.0 blue go to 7.0 blue?  

The signature is no longer viewed as graffiti, I assume, plus it appears to have had more reasonable eyes on it. The book didn't make any sense as a VG but if you're not familiar with...comics...or Sam Kieth, maybe the, er...math?, on the cover doesn't look so good.

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On 12/19/2022 at 6:35 PM, PeterPark said:

The signature is no longer viewed as graffiti, I assume, plus it appears to have had more reasonable eyes on it. The book didn't make any sense as a VG but if you're not familiar with...comics...or Sam Kieth, maybe the, er...math?, on the cover doesn't look so good.

I have no idea what you’re trying to say here...

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For those saying it should be green, and why am I happy. Yes, I agree it should be green, I made that argument myself, why would they create a category for exactly this type of situation and not use it? So I would prefer the green label, IF, it would grade higher as a green label. I knew it wasn't a 4.0, but 7.0 may be on the money for the condition of the book if it wasn't signed. If that is the case, then it has the correct grade. If the book itself is say a 7.6, and it was marked down to a 7.0 because of the signature, then yes, I would fight that and say put a green label on it and give it the correct grade.

The problems here are two. One, I don't know CGC's criteria so I can't argue when it comes to closer grades. I could argue that this book is not a 4.0 because I was able to find many examples online that are clearly in far worse condition than mine. When it comes to the 7-8 range, there are some that I compare and wonder how they are the same. This, I think, is where the objectivity comes in. It is up to the grader when it comes to the smaller differences. Maybe one grader sees something another didn't. Maybe they both see the same thing but one puts a higher weight on that defect. The second issue is that CGC themselves say that it is up to the grader weather or not to use a blue or green label. I can ask for a blue label, but as others have pointed out in this thread, and CGC has told me themselves, I cannot ask for a green label.

Now seeing that I sent in 11 of these books at once, it is strange that one did not come back green. The lowest grade on the others was 7.5. Maybe 7.0 is where they put a blue label on it no matter what. The bottom line is that I am not one of their graders, so I do not know their policies. Now if someone can tell me with 100% certainty that they are required to put a green label on this book and that it deserves a higher grade, I am all for raising the grade. The only person I have seen in here from CGC is CGC Mike and he helped me raise it by three points, so yes, I am happy with that, and I appreciate his help with this. This has been at CGC 4 times now though, so I am not going to push the issue just to get a green label when I think the grade that was given is a fair grade from what I see.

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On 12/19/2022 at 7:41 PM, ThothAmon said:

Makes perfect sense to me. Happy you were able to get an obvious injustice rectified. Not sure what’s got people so cantankerous as it’s a lot more fun being happy for someone else’s good fortune. 

It has nothing with being 'cantankerous'.  It's really quite simple, for the existence of these Maxx Ashcans, up until a few years ago, every book was graded with a green label.  The book's were signed by Keith in 1992 (or whatever) and hence couldn't be a yellow label.  Everyone was fine with that and then suddenly CGC decides to start grading these with blue labels but assigning a penalty resulting in a lower grade.   It made zero sense, and continues to make zero sense.  

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On 12/19/2022 at 7:18 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I have no idea what you’re trying to say here...

I'm not sure what lost you. Let's just try again. It was presumably regraded under different assumptions. Presumably, because the book looked to be in ostensibly better shape than a 4.0, it was hit hard for writing on the cover, including a large scrawled number (that apparently had no meaning to the grader) and a name, 'KIETH'. Presumably, again, upon being regraded, the signature was not hit as hard as before, and the number was taken in context so the grade improved. Did you mean to ask why it did not go to green?

The ashcans are not the most common books, and it is remotely conceivable that someone who grades comics (maybe someone new?) might not know anything about them. That person may see the writing and hit it like they would downgrade a comic where someone back-of-the-envelope math on it (I have plenty of issues that really have this). In regrading, other people may realize the signature is legit and shouldn't have lowered the grade so much (as they probably have more experience).

If you want to know why it didn't go green, that could just be an issue of poorly-defined criteria for green labels. Some names get 'Jack Kirby' written on inside front cover and others get qualified for writing on the cover, so who knows what happens when it comes to grader decisions.

 

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On 12/20/2022 at 1:56 AM, ChopinWasFramed said:

Not really because the signature should be considered damage and grade should be less than 7.0.

You are correct. If they are using a blue label then I would assume they took points off for the writing on the cover. That is why I said if the book itself, without the writing, would grade a 7.0, then the grade is right on the money. That is where I assume they would put a green label on it so that it is known that the grade of the book is 7.0 and they recognize that the signature and number are an actual signature and numbering for the book, not some random scribbling on the cover, but not a signature that CGC witnessed. In this case, there is no way CGC could have witnessed the signature, they weren't around yet, but it is well known, at least to those who know about the ashcans, that all of them were signed and numbered.

From what I have read, there is a point that they will give a blue label because the writing, even if it is a signature, does not affect the grade. For example, say a book gets a 3.0 because of: tears, bends, missing pieces, faded colors, etc. A little writing on the cover is the least of the problems. At that point they will put a blue label on it because the writing doesn't affect the grade. If it would grade a 9.0 without the signature, but the writing would lower it to an 8.2, that is where the green label comes in. The actual book is a 9.0, but the signature affects the grade so the green label comes in to say they realize it is a signature, but they didn't witness it, but the book is in 9.0 condition. I have not been able to find at what point that comes into play though. It could be 5.0, 6.0 or, like mine, 7.0 is where they cutoff the green label. I do wonder if the grader marked off points for the signature and number since it is a blue label, but I don't know. I do think 7.0 is a fair grade for the condition, if you ignore the signature, so maybe just an over-site, or maybe that is just where they cutoff the green labels these days.

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On 12/19/2022 at 9:01 PM, Joe_Von_Weeder said:

Their policy has always been that sigs inside get a Blue and sigs on the cover get a Green. In the past few years they've allowed you to ask for  Blue with a lower grade, but they are not obligated to do so.

Huh?  The OP sent in a batch of books, they were all green labels except for this one.  After several long winded posts on this forum, and communication with CGC, the book is now blue label again and the OP is happy with this but all his other books are Green Label.....pick one or the other CGC - consistency. 

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On 12/19/2022 at 9:50 PM, Shaun03 said:

You are correct. If they are using a blue label then I would assume they took points off for the writing on the cover. That is why I said if the book itself, without the writing, would grade a 7.0, then the grade is right on the money. That is where I assume they would put a green label on it so that it is known that the grade of the book is 7.0 and they recognize that the signature and number are an actual signature and numbering for the book, not some random scribbling on the cover, but not a signature that CGC witnessed. In this case, there is no way CGC could have witnessed the signature, they weren't around yet, but it is well known, at least to those who know about the ashcans, that all of them were signed and numbered.

From what I have read, there is a point that they will give a blue label because the writing, even if it is a signature, does not affect the grade. For example, say a book gets a 3.0 because of: tears, bends, missing pieces, faded colors, etc. A little writing on the cover is the least of the problems. At that point they will put a blue label on it because the writing doesn't affect the grade. If it would grade a 9.0 without the signature, but the writing would lower it to an 8.2, that is where the green label comes in. The actual book is a 9.0, but the signature affects the grade so the green label comes in to say they realize it is a signature, but they didn't witness it, but the book is in 9.0 condition. I have not been able to find at what point that comes into play though. It could be 5.0, 6.0 or, like mine, 7.0 is where they cutoff the green label. I do wonder if the grader marked off points for the signature and number since it is a blue label, but I don't know. I do think 7.0 is a fair grade for the condition, if you ignore the signature, so maybe just an over-site, or maybe that is just where they cutoff the green labels these days.

What about all the other green labels you have?  If this is what you want - blue labels that got a downgrade - then why not ask all the books you had graded to be blue labels?

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Well, should they make changes to the books that were submitted in the 15 years prior?   It's confusing to collectors.  Some person_too_unaware_of_social_graces on ebay was selling a blue label black 'claiming it was the only one in blue label' because CGC changed their policy on this for a reason that doesn't make any sense.  Make them all blue labels with a grade hit, or green labels without the grade hit - having both on the census makes the data wonky at best, inaccurate at worst. 

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On 12/19/2022 at 5:02 PM, Shaun03 said:

This has been at CGC 4 times now though, so I am not going to push the issue

I'm a "two strikes and you're out" guy.  Shaun "fought the good fight" (Timothy 4:7).  I agree with him -- it's time to let this go.  (thumbsu

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On 12/20/2022 at 1:45 PM, spreads said:

What about all the other green labels you have?  If this is what you want - blue labels that got a downgrade - then why not ask all the books you had graded to be blue labels?

I don't think you are reading what I said correctly. I didn't ask for a blue label. I would prefer a green label, but I've had it at CGC four times now. I said that IF it would grade higher with a green label. There is no way for me to know that though since I don't know if this was another mistake and 7.0 is the true grade and they just put a blue label on it. Or if they don't put green labels on anything 7.0 or below. As I explained in the post you replied to, from what I have read, they will not put a green label on books that are below a certain level, but I have not found anything definitive on what that actually is, if there is a set numerical grade, or has been said previously, the decision is ultimately up to the grader. The last time this book came back: it had a green label, with printing for a blue label and was put in the system as a yellow label, so obviously mistakes can be made. I think that 7.0 is a fair grade for the condition of the book, blue label, green label, yellow label, red label, pink label, whatever color the label is. Maybe the grader meant it to be green and chose the wrong thing in the system. Maybe they graded it and decided the signature didn't affect the grade so the blue label was the best option. I am not the grader so I don't know.

Whatever the case, I stated all of this in the last post, and bottom line, I appreciate the support I received with getting it from a 4.0 to a 7.0, which again, I think is a fair grade. If it should have graded a 7.6 without the signature and the grader just chose not to do that, then it is what it is since I don't own CGC and can't tell them how to do things. I think I received a fair outcome thanks to the support in the beginning. If you ever encounter this situation, you are welcome to keep sending it back until they bend to your will.

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I did put it up for auction. I finished the collection a little over a year ago ending a 13 year adventure. I have enjoyed looking at it from time to time but I don't collect comics anymore just because there is too much to follow these days. Wolverine was always my favorite character since I was child. When his death happened It took me forever to collect all of the covers for that, and I don't know if I actually did get all of them because of all of the convention versions and store versions. Looking online there are more than 20 that I can find listed but I don't know if that list is complete. Then they went and brought him back and there were over 60 covers that I know of. It reminded me of when Superman died and I spent a fortune, for me as a kid at the time, on an issue and then it became worthless because they brought him back. I am selling off most of my collection, about half of it is gone now and I need to find the time to list the other half. I am going to keep some issues that I want when I was younger but couldn't afford, which are also not worth much these days, just ones that bring back the memories of what it was like as a kid and comic stores were on every corner.

I did not receive any offers for the whole set, just offers for some of the books that people need for their collection.

I know there are Maxx fans on here. I'm not looking to break up the set, but if anyone wants to make an offer off of eBay I would go to $15k because there are no fees off of eBay. I've seen some messages on this board saying the price I paid for some of the books was crazy, so if you think the amount I am asking is crazy that is fine but I would ask that you not respond telling me that. I think for all that I am offering it is way more reasonable that what others are asking for some Maxx items on eBay.

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Fair enough, they're your books to do with what you wish.  Having said that, most collectors of these will have some of these - the likeliehood of finding a buyer for the set is extremely low (very niche item, niche collector).  You'll make more selling them individually, let me know if you decide to go that route I'd be interested in a few but there's zero chance I'm buying the entire set to then selloff individually. 

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