How can we get more information on "surface" grades? 1 1

[Chasing Hits TCG]

The attached Charizard just finished grading but the surface graded a 9. Even looking at the high res photos CGC took, I can't seem to find anything wrong with the surface. No print lines, scratches, etc. How can we get more information as to what lead to the surface getting the grade it did? What should I be looking for on the card? 

Thank you in advance for your help! 

[RoLaren]

I would like to see an answer to this as well...

[Lord Iron]

Below is my opinion and I’m am not associated with CGC Cards.

English cards are notorious for bad print quality. Also realize CGC utilizes cutting edge imaging that looks at the cards under UV & Infrared light showing imperfections in the surface (more than likely in the texture pattern). Just a quick glance at the high res, I seen some spots that may be imperfections due to the printing process. 

 Very Respectfully,

Lord Iron

[Chasing Hits TCG]

On 9/8/2022 at 11:49 PM, Lord Iron said:

Below is my opinion and I’m am not associated with CGC Cards.

English cards are notorious for bad print quality. Also realize CGC utilizes cutting edge imaging that looks at the cards under UV & Infrared light showing imperfections in the surface (more than likely in the texture pattern). Just a quick glance at the high res, I seen some spots that may be imperfections due to the printing process. 

 Very Respectfully,

Lord Iron

Thank you for that! Very helpful. 

[Lord Iron]

On 9/9/2022 at 9:20 AM, Chasing Hits TCG said:

Thank you for that! Very helpful. 

You’re welcome! Still a very good grade!

Edited September 10, 2022 by Lord Iron

[mz1995g]

On 9/8/2022 at 11:49 PM, Lord Iron said:

Below is my opinion and I’m am not associated with CGC Cards.

English cards are notorious for bad print quality. Also realize CGC utilizes cutting edge imaging that looks at the cards under UV & Infrared light showing imperfections in the surface (more than likely in the texture pattern). Just a quick glance at the high res, I seen some spots that may be imperfections due to the printing process. 

 Very Respectfully,

Lord Iron

How do you know that those dots are not on the case itself? Since if you look at the top of the case where there is no card, you can see similar dots. 

 

[Lord Iron]

On 9/10/2022 at 1:15 PM, mz1995g said:

How do you know that those dots are not on the case itself? Since if you look at the top of the case where there is no card, you can see similar dots. 

 

Impossible to know for certain without examining the card in person. They could be specks of dust, camera artifacts, or texture layer flaws. The surface issue is more than likely on the frontside somewhere in the texture ink layer. 

[mz1995g]

On 9/16/2022 at 4:59 PM, Lord Iron said:

Impossible to know for certain without examining the card in person. They could be specks of dust, camera artifacts, or texture layer flaws. The surface issue is more than likely on the frontside somewhere in the texture ink layer. 

If im being honest, it looks like its on the case and not on the card. Ive seen japanese cards get 10s with print lines, so its not like those things should prevent the card from getting a 10.

If I had one complaint about CGC is that the English cards are still graded a bit too inconstantly. I dont send in alot of English cards due to this. We dont really even know what the centering standards should be, which is public info for every other grading company. Id like to send in more english cards, but not if the average is 9.5. Modern cards barely gain any premiums from only being a 9.5. Not saying every card needs to be a 10, but when the eye appeal of the card shows no transparent issues and you have to take UV lights just to show anything, it makes submitting english cards not ideal.

[Lord Iron]

On 9/16/2022 at 4:13 PM, mz1995g said:

If im being honest, it looks like its on the case and not on the card. Ive seen japanese cards get 10s with print lines, so its not like those things should prevent the card from getting a 10.

If I had one complaint about CGC is that the English cards are still graded a bit too inconstantly. I dont send in alot of English cards due to this. We dont really even know what the centering standards should be, which is public info for every other grading company. Id like to send in more english cards, but not if the average is 9.5. Modern cards barely gain any premiums from only being a 9.5. Not saying every card needs to be a 10, but when the eye appeal of the card shows no transparent issues and you have to take UV lights just to show anything, it makes submitting english cards not ideal.

CGC does not mark down for print lines. I have a perfect 10 with 3 print lines. 

I would argue that modern English card grades seem to be inconsistent due to the unfortunate nature that the printing quality on English cards remains lackluster and overall poor. I wouldn't necessary pass the blame onto CGC. I think they are doing their best to maintain standards, with the cards they're given. I agree, submitting English cards is not ideal even if they appear near flawless by the naked eye. I do also agree more transparency is good, release margins and common flaws associated with English vs. Japanese etc. would be awesome and well received. 

[Chasing Hits TCG]

On 9/21/2022 at 10:51 PM, Lord Iron said:

CGC does not mark down for print lines. I have a perfect 10 with 3 print lines. 

I would argue that modern English card grades seem to be inconsistent due to the unfortunate nature that the printing quality on English cards remains lackluster and overall poor. I wouldn't necessary pass the blame onto CGC. I think they are doing their best to maintain standards, with the cards they're given. I agree, submitting English cards is not ideal even if they appear near flawless by the naked eye. I do also agree more transparency is good, release margins and common flaws associated with English vs. Japanese etc. would be awesome and well received. 

Yes, I agree printing stands have gone down. I do not blame CGC and trust their grading. I'm more curious as to why it did get knocked. I have some cards coming back today that got 8.5's on surface and to my naked eye, I can't see any defects. 

I would even be on board with paying a few extra dollars per card to get a detailed report on why it graded the way it did. If you are already paying for sub grades, the grader is essentially detailing each of the 4 subcategories. I'm ok with paying a little extra to get the graders notes or an overview of the graders notes. This would a big leap into transparency and would put a stop to age old knock that grading is subjective to the individual grader and not objective as it should be. 

[mz1995g]

On 9/22/2022 at 10:52 AM, Chasing Hits TCG said:

Yes, I agree printing stands have gone down. I do not blame CGC and trust their grading. I'm more curious as to why it did get knocked. I have some cards coming back today that got 8.5's on surface and to my naked eye, I can't see any defects. 

I would even be on board with paying a few extra dollars per card to get a detailed report on why it graded the way it did. If you are already paying for sub grades, the grader is essentially detailing each of the 4 subcategories. I'm ok with paying a little extra to get the graders notes or an overview of the graders notes. This would a big leap into transparency and would put a stop to age old knock that grading is subjective to the individual grader and not objective as it should be. 

My problem with graders notes is that they will just lead to longer turn around times and increased costs. They seem like an ok idea on high end cards, but Im not going to waste more money to find out why a 30 dollar card got a 9.5 instead of a 10. That just doesnt seem practical at all.

Outside of centering issues, Im not seeing what the big deal is about english cards. If I can get 50/50 centering, then I get a 10 most of the time. As for surface, have no idea what issues CGC is seeing that Im not seeing. And similar to the graders notes, Im not investing much resources into figuring out why my low end cards arent coming back high grades. I think thats a bit over the top to need jewelers loupes or UV lighting or whatever the naked eye cant detect on cards that go into the bulk tier. The average person isnt going to devote that much energy just to try to get a 10 on lower end stuff.

[Chasing Hits TCG]

On 9/22/2022 at 2:38 PM, mz1995g said:

My problem with graders notes is that they will just lead to longer turn around times and increased costs. They seem like an ok idea on high end cards, but Im not going to waste more money to find out why a 30 dollar card got a 9.5 instead of a 10. That just doesnt seem practical at all.

Outside of centering issues, Im not seeing what the big deal is about english cards. If I can get 50/50 centering, then I get a 10 most of the time. As for surface, have no idea what issues CGC is seeing that Im not seeing. And similar to the graders notes, Im not investing much resources into figuring out why my low end cards arent coming back high grades. I think thats a bit over the top to need jewelers loupes or UV lighting or whatever the naked eye cant detect on cards that go into the bulk tier. The average person isnt going to devote that much energy just to try to get a 10 on lower end stuff.

Yes there would be an extra cost to get the notes so you would understand going into it, extra cost and extra time. I agree, most "bulk tier" cards I wouldn't pay for that BUT when a card missed a 10 by .5 and to the naked eye you can't see any defects, I'd like to know what the grader saw. I've missed a Perfect 10 by .5 on surface and again, can't see any defects with the naked eye. Just another level of transparency that that would available IF you wanted to pay for it. 

[mz1995g]

On 9/23/2022 at 4:58 PM, Chasing Hits TCG said:

Yes there would be an extra cost to get the notes so you would understand going into it, extra cost and extra time. I agree, most "bulk tier" cards I wouldn't pay for that BUT when a card missed a 10 by .5 and to the naked eye you can't see any defects, I'd like to know what the grader saw. I've missed a Perfect 10 by .5 on surface and again, can't see any defects with the naked eye. Just another level of transparency that that would available IF you wanted to pay for it. 

The issue with graders notes on bulk cards is that you can only buy the notes before the card is graded, so if your submitting a card thinking there is no issues, why would you buy the notes? Unless the cards are expensive enough, your not going to buy the notes in the first place. And you cant get the notes after the fact, since its similar to subgrades in that unless your prepaying, your never going to know what was wrong with your cards.

I just dont think the average person is going to pay extra on lower end stuff to get graders notes. If you get a card and there looks to be no issues, your just going to accept whatever grade is given. Im not sure exactly what a practical solution would be, but paying extra and waiting more on bulk stuff doesnt seem like it makes logical sense in most cases. I can only see people buying graders notes when there is some obviously noticable defect or if the card is expensive enough, but if there isnt anything obviously wrong, I cant see why someone would second guess their card and pay more money for an explanation. I personally cant see a reason why Id ever want graders notes since the cards arent valuable enough for me to care about the reason why they came back the way they did. If the card is expensive enough and I dont like the grade, I just crack it and send it elsewhere since theres just certain perimeters that CGC goes by while other companies dont. The only thing I think CGC could do is making the standards more streamlined since when it comes to say centering, its unclear what CGC's standards are on it sides it just being harsher than the competition, but no #s on what the standards actually are.

Edited September 23, 2022 by mz1995g