Nostalgia, Art, or Story? 2 2

[Aahz]

I hear a lot that nostalgia is the main driver in this hobby.  However, this does not explain interest in art from the 40's through the early 60's or the prices being realized by modern artists like Tradd Moore (first name that came to mind) whose work has not been around long enough to drive nostalgic feelings.  :-).  

At the same time, I read one comment that a collector was happy they did not follow story driven pages/books, because a great story could drive mediocre art.  However, if story is not a driver, why doesn't everyone just collect commissions or pin ups?

Now art isn't the end all be all either, because there are great modern artists that still don't get their full value and older so-so pages that are expensive.

I'm writing this while watching Heritage and seeing a bunch of Ross Andru pages from the late 60's early 70's going for about $10K a piece.  They are nice pages, but what is driving the price?

So which is it - Nostalgia, art, or story?

Edited September 11, 2022 by Heidjer Staecker

[Rick2you2]

On 9/11/2022 at 12:48 PM, Heidjer Staecker said:

I'm writing this while watching Heritage and seeing a bunch of Ross Andru pages from the late 60's early 70's going for about $10K a piece.  They are nice pages, but what is driving the price?

Something in the water. But, I think it has to do with a tie-in to Spiderman for Andru and Sub-Mariner's tie-in to Everett.

[Twanj]

Add some HYPE in there occasionally.

[Taylor G]

On 9/11/2022 at 12:48 PM, Heidjer Staecker said:

I hear a lot that nostalgia is the main driver in this hobby.  However, this does not explain interest in art from the 40's through the early 60's

For those that are interested in the art, and not just the nostalgic thrill, a question to ask is, what is the art?

Is it the draughtsmanship?  I guess people who are satisfied with single pages would say yes.

There's an argument though that the real art form is the storytelling, that comics and comic strips developed a visual language that paralleled the visual language of motion pictures, the great popular art form of the twentieth century, and that people who aren't interested in story are missing the point.

[barneythecantankerous]

Look at how many flyby night dealers and reps popup; the FOMO YouTube/Facebook/WhatNot streams; the constant enthusiasm and buzz about prices; heck even the flip thread... The fourth point you've missed is investment

 

[The Voord]

On 9/11/2022 at 5:48 PM, Heidjer Staecker said:

So which is it - Nostalgia, art, or story?

For me, I can dip into all three options separately . . . though when all elements combine, it's a win-win-win situation!

[Rick2you2]

On 9/11/2022 at 2:59 PM, Taylor G said:

For those that are interested in the art, and not just the nostalgic thrill, a question to ask is, what is the art?

Is it the draughtsmanship?  I guess people who are satisfied with single pages would say yes.

There's an argument though that the real art form is the storytelling, that comics and comic strips developed a visual language that paralleled the visual language of motion pictures, the great popular art form of the twentieth century, and that people who aren't interested in story are missing the point.

I've made this same point earlier, but the truth is, most people can't afford whole stories, or even sequences. So, we settle for the story telling on a page by page basis.

[delekkerste]

On 9/11/2022 at 12:48 PM, Heidjer Staecker said:

I hear a lot that nostalgia is the main driver in this hobby.  However, this does not explain interest in art from the 40's through the early 60's or the prices being realized by modern artists like Tradd Moore (first name that came to mind) whose work has not been around long enough to drive nostalgic feelings.  :-).  

At the same time, I read one comment that a collector was happy they did not follow story driven pages/books, because a great story could drive mediocre art.  However, if story is not a driver, why doesn't everyone just collect commissions or pin ups?

Now art isn't the end all be all either, because there are great modern artists that still don't get their full value and older so-so pages that are expensive.

I'm writing this while watching Heritage and seeing a bunch of Ross Andru pages from the late 60's early 70's going for about $10K a piece.  They are nice pages, but what is driving the price?

So which is it - Nostalgia, art, or story?

Nostalgia isn't limited to just the stuff that came out while you were growing up. It can also include/extend to, among other things:

- characters you loved growing up in material that may have pre or post-dated what came out when you were a kid. For example, you may have grown up on Death of Superman, but, in your older age, that nostalgic interest may drive you to collect Curt Swan Superman or Frank Quitely All-Star Superman

- things you read as back issues or reprints but pre-dated what came out while you were a kid. For example, I read the Ditko and Romita ASM reprints in Marvel Tales, the Neal Adams X-Men run in the X-Men Classics reprint series from 1983, Byrne and Cockrum X-Men from Classic X-Men, Barry Smith Conan from Conan Saga, Tomb of Dracula from picking up quarter bin books at my LCS, many EC stories in the Gladstone reprints of the late '80s, etc. As such, I have nostalgia for all of this material today even though it was all published before I started reading comics in 1983.

- received wisdom when you were a kid. It's not like when you start reading comics that you're only limited to reading what's coming out then and going forward. You learn from reading and word of mouth what are the important books and runs and characters and who are the important creators and so that stays with you for as long as you are collecting

- the thrill of finding new comics to read and art to enjoy as an adult may mirror - nostalgically - the thrill you got doing the same as a kid. And that can lead you back in time or back to the future, as it were.

So, basically, I'm saying that nostalgia manifests itself in various ways...

As for those Andru pages, it's Spider-Man, it's Bill Everett, it's a character with a long history who is as relevant as ever today, penciled by one of the top 10 artists associated with the character (Ross Andru) and inked by one of the all-time greats in Bill Everett. 

[comicginger1789]

On 9/11/2022 at 12:48 PM, Heidjer Staecker said:

I hear a lot that nostalgia is the main driver in this hobby.  However, this does not explain interest in art from the 40's through the early 60's or the prices being realized by modern artists like Tradd Moore (first name that came to mind) whose work has not been around long enough to drive nostalgic feelings.  :-).  

At the same time, I read one comment that a collector was happy they did not follow story driven pages/books, because a great story could drive mediocre art.  However, if story is not a driver, why doesn't everyone just collect commissions or pin ups?

Now art isn't the end all be all either, because there are great modern artists that still don't get their full value and older so-so pages that are expensive.

I'm writing this while watching Heritage and seeing a bunch of Ross Andru pages from the late 60's early 70's going for about $10K a piece.  They are nice pages, but what is driving the price?

So which is it - Nostalgia, art, or story?

All 3 for me! Although the art, and a good cover, always wins for me even if the inside is horrendous.

[adamstrange]

On 9/11/2022 at 12:48 PM, Heidjer Staecker said:

seeing a bunch of Ross Andru pages from the late 60's early 70's going for about $10K a piece.

The market has crashed!!!! 

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 9/11/2022 at 7:00 PM, delekkerste said:

Nostalgia isn't limited to just the stuff that came out while you were growing up. It can also include/extend to, among other things:

- characters you loved growing up in material that may have pre or post-dated what came out when you were a kid. For example, you may have grown up on Death of Superman, but, in your older age, that nostalgic interest may drive you to collect Curt Swan Superman or Frank Quitely All-Star Superman

- things you read as back issues or reprints but pre-dated what came out while you were a kid. For example, I read the Ditko and Romita ASM reprints in Marvel Tales, the Neal Adams X-Men run in the X-Men Classics reprint series from 1983, Byrne and Cockrum X-Men from Classic X-Men, Barry Smith Conan from Conan Saga, Tomb of Dracula from picking up quarter bin books at my LCS, many EC stories in the Gladstone reprints of the late '80s, etc. As such, I have nostalgia for all of this material today even though it was all published before I started reading comics in 1983.

- received wisdom when you were a kid. It's not like when you start reading comics that you're only limited to reading what's coming out then and going forward. You learn from reading and word of mouth what are the important books and runs and characters and who are the important creators and so that stays with you for as long as you are collecting

- the thrill of finding new comics to read and art to enjoy as an adult may mirror - nostalgically - the thrill you got doing the same as a kid. And that can lead you back in time or back to the future, as it were.

So, basically, I'm saying that nostalgia manifests itself in various ways...

As for those Andru pages, it's Spider-Man, it's Bill Everett, it's a character with a long history who is as relevant as ever today, penciled by one of the top 10 artists associated with the character (Ross Andru) and inked by one of the all-time greats in Bill Everett. 

emphasis on the bolded above. And that is even more so now, we are in a golden age of reprint material in a myriad of formats, both print and digital. Now, they are also competing with, and diluting each other as well as competing with every other form of mass media so there has to be some fragmenting and specialization and segmentation that ultimately impacts future nostalgia. Right now, as a Gen-Xer I've got competing interests in comics, books, magazines, pinball, toys, games, electronics, music, art, etc.  That's just my personal window of Wonderbread years of personal experience, consumption, or unfulfilled desires.  

Specifically with Original Comic Art: The above means that the OA market, which now has demonstrated an average 10x-50x per unit price inflation in the last 10-15 years (speaking strictly about published comic art, which is all I collect). the net effect of this for me:  while I could afford to buy any of the 30 or so lots I was tracking in the Sept. HA I bid on absolutely ZERO. I didn't even watch the auction like I normally would with one of my friends. I'm not going to drop 5 figures on any 11x17 panel page and I'm not going to drop 5k for a panel page I could have bought for $300-500 in 2009 either. Not when I could buy a vintage pinball machine, airfare to anywhere, completely overhaul my home theater or sound system, any number of things where the value proposition is much, much higher.  If I dropped 50K in the Sept HA and all I got was 4 panel pages from the late 70's and maybe, maybe a title page by Ed Hannigan or Don Perlin from the early 80's I'd shoot myself if my wife didn't shoot me first for being a complete fool. 

[MyNameIsLegion]

my point above is:  OA has priced me out of the hobby as a viable pursuit relative to other things that I can enjoy. I'm not going to be like some sad soul living in squalor eating canned ravioli with a 7 figure art collection or comic collection. I've seen that, and I don't want to be that.  there's a tipping point somewhere, in our minds, or driven by the market. When hobbies become obsessions that conflict with practical considerations and life goals and pursuits: it's time to jump.  Don't let your obsessions or FOMO pack your chute.

Edited September 12, 2022 by MyNameIsLegion

[KirbyCollector]

On 9/12/2022 at 7:32 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

while I could afford to buy any of the 30 or so lots I was tracking in the Sept. HA I bid on absolutely ZERO. I didn't even watch the auction like I normally would with one of my friends. I'm not going to drop 5 figures on any 11x17 panel page and I'm not going to drop 5k for a panel page I could have bought for $300-500 in 2009 either. Not when I could buy a vintage pinball machine, airfare to anywhere, completely overhaul my home theater or sound system, any number of things where the value proposition is much, much higher.

Seeking value in everyday use or experiences is fine. Combining the temporary pleasure in holding a beautiful piece of art which very few have ever seen since it left the artist's hand 40 or 50 years ago and the more permanent pleasure of a stable investment return, well, these are also fine. 

BTW the airfare to anywhere? Flying to Paris free in November and staying free thanks to credit card points generated by... OA purchases this year. So you can have your cake and eat it, too 

[delekkerste]

On 9/12/2022 at 7:32 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

while I could afford to buy any of the 30 or so lots I was tracking in the Sept. HA I bid on absolutely ZERO. I didn't even watch the auction like I normally would with one of my friends. I'm not going to drop 5 figures on any 11x17 panel page and I'm not going to drop 5k for a panel page I could have bought for $300-500 in 2009 either. Not when I could buy a vintage pinball machine, airfare to anywhere, completely overhaul my home theater or sound system, any number of things where the value proposition is much, much higher.

The value proposition isn't there right now, and it's just not comparable to previous markets when prices were pennies and nickels on today's dollar. We're in a market where even some C-level pieces are fetching what A-level pieces got in very recent memory.  I can kind of understand the price inflation for the true quality pieces, but, it's gotten so indiscriminate over the past couple of years to the point where so much drek is getting prices no one ever dared dream of, with FOMO buying and people priced out of better material bidding up lower-end pieces to levels that would have seemed absurd 2-3 years ago and bidding up B/B+ medium-end pieces to hard A-quality levels from that time as well. As one very longtime collector noted to me the other day:  "This isn't going to end well, is it?" 

On 9/12/2022 at 7:32 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

If I dropped 50K in the Sept HA and all I got was 4 panel pages from the late 70's and maybe, maybe a title page by Ed Hannigan or Don Perlin from the early 80's I'd shoot myself if my wife didn't shoot me first for being a complete fool. 

Pretty sad that this is where we are these days. But it's also why I've had so much more fun and bought so much more stuff in other collectibles verticals (trading cards, sealed record albums, RPGs, event tickets & programs, signed books, etc.) the past few years. Even at the inflated pandemic-era prices in those sub-markets, the price points are rounding errors compared to where most OA is nowadays. 

[KirbyCollector]

On 9/12/2022 at 9:21 AM, delekkerste said:

The value proposition isn't there right now, and it's just not comparable to previous markets when prices were pennies and nickels on today's dollar. We're in a market where even some C-level pieces are fetching what A-level pieces got in very recent memory.  I can kind of understand the price inflation for the true quality pieces, but, it's gotten so indiscriminate over the past couple of years to the point where so much drek is getting prices no one ever dared dream of, with FOMO buying and people priced out of better material bidding up lower-end pieces to levels that would have seemed absurd 2-3 years ago and bidding up B/B+ medium-end pieces to hard A-quality levels from that time as well. As one very longtime collector noted to me the other day:  "This isn't going to end well, is it?" 

Pretty sad that this is where we are these days. But it's also why I've had so much more fun and bought so much more stuff in other collectibles verticals (trading cards, sealed record albums, RPGs, event tickets & programs, signed books, etc.) the past few years. Even at the inflated pandemic-era prices in those sub-markets, the price points are rounding errors compared to where most OA is nowadays. 

I see the SP500 topping at 5500 late next year or early 2024... TLT at 150 in 18-24 months... BTC will come right along too, although predicting where it ends is akin to reading tea leaves... there is going to be a lot more money converted into OA/collectibles before we get the next big financial earthquake

Not investing advice... do your own due diligence

Edited September 12, 2022 by KirbyCollector

[zhamlau]

I think the push for older strip art is likely the buyers looking for opportunities in underpriced material. To many people Terry strips look like values considering their artistic and historic merit. Caniff basically is the face for action based comics. He influenced and changed how we both draw and consume sequential art. In this crazy market some folks see his work as a value and they decided to buy some at what they felt were cheap prices compared to other later artists. 
 

 

[tth2]

On 9/12/2022 at 9:47 PM, zhamlau said:

I think the push for older strip art is likely the buyers looking for opportunities in underpriced material. To many people Terry strips look like values considering their artistic and historic merit. Caniff basically is the face for action based comics. He influenced and changed how we both draw and consume sequential art. In this crazy market some folks see his work as a value and they decided to buy some at what they felt were cheap prices compared to other later artists. 
 

 

Agree with everything you say, except that the "underpriced" part is no longer true.

In the just-concluded Signature Auction, 2 dailies went for over $25k (both featuring the Dragon Lady), 2 dailies went for over $19k, 1 daily and 1 Sunday went for over $15k each, 2 dailies went for over $10k, 4 dailies went for around $9k, and the rest went for low- to mid-4 figures. 

They're not Peanuts level prices, but they are a quantum leap up from where they were just a year ago, when it was unusual for a strip to go over mid-4 figures.    

[delekkerste]

On 9/12/2022 at 9:47 AM, zhamlau said:

I think the push for older strip art is likely the buyers looking for opportunities in underpriced material. To many people Terry strips look like values considering their artistic and historic merit. Caniff basically is the face for action based comics. He influenced and changed how we both draw and consume sequential art. In this crazy market some folks see his work as a value and they decided to buy some at what they felt were cheap prices compared to other later artists. 

I know several guys playing in this sandbox now who were much more active in vintage mainstream art, say, 5 years ago, and I suspect a lot of that because of the relative value proposition (though, that has been narrowing in recent auctions). 

[tth2]

On 9/12/2022 at 10:08 PM, delekkerste said:

I know several guys playing in this sandbox now who were much more active in vintage mainstream art, say, 5 years ago, and I suspect a lot of that because of the relative value proposition (though, that has been narrowing in recent auctions). 

Please tell them that all the cool kids are buying BA and CA art, and perhaps they need to rekindle their appreciation for the subtle artistic mastery of Ed Hannigan, Don Perlin, Joe Staton, Frank Robbins, etc.

[adamstrange]

On 9/12/2022 at 11:03 AM, tth2 said:

On 9/12/2022 at 10:08 AM, delekkerste said:

I know several guys playing in this sandbox now who were much more active in vintage mainstream art, say, 5 years ago, and I suspect a lot of that because of the relative value proposition (though, that has been narrowing in recent auctions). 

Please tell them that all the cool kids are buying BA and CA art, and perhaps they need to rekindle their appreciation for the subtle artistic mastery of Ed Hannigan, Don Perlin, Joe Staton, Frank Robbins, etc.

The disrespect shown to Sal Buscema by such inappropriate attention to out of date newspaper hacks is incalculable.