LED Light page lightening and Restoration 3 3

[ammar_ammar]

How does CGC handle books that have been purposefully "whitened" using blue light? The lights can both wash out colors but also whiten yellowed pages without adding anything to the book.  Is it considered restoration or is it similar to using an eraser to remove dirt ? 

[theCapraAegagrus]

It's a sort of bleaching, which is definitely restoration.

[Forbush-Man]

On 9/27/2022 at 4:12 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

It's a sort of bleaching, which is definitely restoration.

But how would CGC even know the pages were whitened by blue light. Usually they detect bleaching by chemical smell, unless I'm off the mark on that one. Varying colors of ink on pages happens in production, variance in page colors too (maybe not with moderns, but with the standard newsprint comics.) 

[Forbush-Man]

On 9/26/2022 at 2:36 PM, ammar_ammar said:

How does CGC handle books that have been purposefully "whitened" using blue light? The lights can both wash out colors but also whiten yellowed pages without adding anything to the book.  Is it considered restoration or is it similar to using an eraser to remove dirt ? 

@CGC Mikecan your team answer this question? 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 9/27/2022 at 10:21 AM, Forbush-Man said:

But how would CGC even know the pages were whitened by blue light. Usually they detect bleaching by chemical smell, unless I'm off the mark on that one. Varying colors of ink on pages happens in production, variance in page colors too (maybe not with moderns, but with the standard newsprint comics.) 

IIRC, how to detect was covered in a different thread that discussed this method. Sadly, I can't remember what the thread was named or how long ago it was discussed (the last year or two).

Edit: Stu posted the exact thread directly below.

Edited September 27, 2022 by theCapraAegagrus

[Forbush-Man]

On 9/27/2022 at 7:48 AM, Dewus2? said:

Did they use Peroxide too?

 

Thanks for the link.  Now I'm up to speed. 

[CGC Mike]

On 9/27/2022 at 10:24 AM, Forbush-Man said:

@CGC Mikecan your team answer this question? 

I'll ask!

[dover]

Easy to find lots and lots of FB posts about this and many more interesting techniques. And they all claim CGC cannot detect it. Blue labels for you, blue labels for me. It terrifies me in buying slabs. 

 

[Forbush-Man]

On 9/27/2022 at 9:38 AM, CGC Mike said:

I'll ask!

It looks like the combo of hydrogen peroxide and the LED blue light are used together, Just FYI.

[dover]

There have been (2) books published on these techniques as well. It is VERY hard on the paper. 

[joeypost]

Bleaching agents and high intensity UV light exposure. What could go wrong. 

[Dr. Balls]

On 9/27/2022 at 8:21 AM, Forbush-Man said:

But how would CGC even know the pages were whitened by blue light. Usually they detect bleaching by chemical smell, unless I'm off the mark on that one. Varying colors of ink on pages happens in production, variance in page colors too (maybe not with moderns, but with the standard newsprint comics.) 

This is a wild stab in the dark - but I'm going to guess that faded ink rosetta patterns and maladjusted ink density (the variance of ink color on the press is measured by changes in density) can both be seen under a loupe. I don't have anything handy at my desk to try out and see if I can tell a difference, but my guess is that extreme exposure to light will do something to the rosetta pattern. I am curious to see what CGC Mike finds out.

[Kevin76]

On 9/27/2022 at 9:05 PM, Dr. Balls said:

This is a wild stab in the dark - but I'm going to guess that faded ink rosetta patterns and maladjusted ink density (the variance of ink color on the press is measured by changes in density) can both be seen under a loupe. I don't have anything handy at my desk to try out and see if I can tell a difference, but my guess is that extreme exposure to light will do something to the rosetta pattern. I am curious to see what CGC Mike finds out.

Get yourself a densitometer  

[Dr. Balls]

On 9/28/2022 at 7:42 AM, Kevin76 said:

Get yourself a densitometer  

I need to get one of those for my desk drawer!

[Upgrayedd2]

I’ve seen amazing results by some local collectors, lights-only, followed by the commensurate CGC paper grades. Problems arise when someone gets overzealous and tries to jump more than one page quality. Getting a comic from say, “light tan to white” to “off white” is easily achieved. But much like other cleaning and pressing procedures, skill and experience go a long way. 
 

Best of luck to all who try. And please to share before and after pics. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Upgrayedd2
Spelling

[eastriver400]

 

I am assuming CGC doesn't have the ability to accurately detect page whitening with light (no chemicals).  I have seen a few videos on youtube  where a C "L" R??  results in a higher Page quality grade from CGC. 

 

I feel like it is clearly restoration, but if CGC can't consistently, accurately detect it with surety, then I guess it is fair game. 

 

I always felt lower page quality signals the onset of page degradation.... so if it can be so easily hidden, this kind of sucks. 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by eastriver400

[The Lions Den]

On 9/29/2022 at 9:46 AM, eastriver400 said:

 

I am assuming CGC doesn't have the ability to accurately detect page whitening with light (no chemicals).  I have seen a few videos on youtube  where a C "L" R??  results in a higher Page quality grade from CGC. 

 

I feel like it is clearly restoration, but if CGC can't consistently, accurately detect it with surety, then I guess it is fair game. 

 

I always felt lower page quality signals the onset of page degradation.... so if it can be so easily hidden, this kind of sucks. 

 

Let's just say that while paper quality is very important to many collectors (myself included) it's one of those things that seems to have become a bit less essential these days.

If you're going to keep your books in slabs, does it really matter what the page quality is as long as the pages aren't brittle?   

 

 

[MAR1979]

What are the short, mid, and long term effects of this UV based process on the pages?  Logically it is not good as renowned pressing expert Joeypost alluded to; "Bleaching agents and high intensity UV light exposure. What could go wrong." .

UV damage (even if it's so-called desired damage) continues to some degree after the initial exposure(s) :

Light is a very common cause of damage to collections. Many materials are particularly sensitive to light: paper, cloth, leather, photographs, and media (inks, colorants, dyes, and many other materials used to create objects and art). Aside from fading, there may be damage to the physical and chemical structure of materials. Light and ultraviolet radiation (UV) provides energy to fuel chemical reactions that lead to deterioration and while UV is blamed for most of this damage, visible light is also problematic. 

This could alter some sellers WP above all else business models (Hi Bob!) and some collector's preferences. IMHO unless a pre-2010 slab I would be very wary of any mid grade Silver or Golden Age book with WP.  Was this type of process used prior to 2010? If so may mean only books in pre 2004 slabs are "safe" from the effects?

My assumption is that for high grade Silver and Gold stuff those doing this UV process will not want to risk lowering a numerical grade with the handling the procedure requires.  While on mid-grade books the risks are off-set by the premium some will pay for WP.

  

On 9/27/2022 at 6:32 PM, joeypost said:

Bleaching agents and high intensity UV light exposure. What could go wrong. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by MAR1979

[eastriver400]

On 9/29/2022 at 10:27 AM, The Lions Den said:

Let's just say that while paper quality is very important to many collectors (myself included) it's one of those things that seems to have become a bit less essential these days.

If you're going to keep your books in slabs, does it really matter what the page quality is as long as the pages aren't brittle?   

 

 

 

True.   I just cringe at the idea of having borderline brittle pages being lightened to get a WHITE designation.   When I see WHITE pages I assume they are supple and bendable. 

[Tony S]

The blue (that is higher energy/higher frequency) light is largely window dressing. The process involves bleaching agents as well - usually hydrogen peroxide.  It is the bleach that is doing the heavy lifting as far as whitening and making stains lighter.  The person....call it taking credit and certainly popularizing this process says they got the inspiration from dentists using blue light for whitening teeth. But the dentists are also using hydrogen peroxide in a paste. And there have been recent studies on the dental side of things saying the blue light wasn't adding anything to the process.  The paste with the bleaching agent used alone worked just as well. 

There are some potential problems here with this growing in popularity process:
1) If CGC detects bleaching it will get a conserved label as "cover cleaned". Lots of claims that CGC didn't detect it. But it's pushing the envelope and it's all good until it's not. 
2) This nearly always being done without removing the cover. So they don't have a good way of washing out the bleaching agent. Which means the bleaching may continue on longer than desired. 
3) Most people doing this are not offering it as a retail service. More of a "for themselves and friends" and "at your own risk". The few I've seen advertising it as a paid service they provide have disclaimers stating that whitening/stain removal could lead to fading, color lift , creasing and other bad stuff.