CGC Recognizes Newsstand Edition on Label 1 1

[Iconic1s]

Please don't tell me this means there will be additional slots added to competitive registry sets for both newsstand editions as well as direct.

Adding this second question - will these be broken down in the census when labels are changed and will points be the same for newsstands and directs?

Comment - I hope CGC realizes that if the answer to the census/points question is yes that the census will never be correct because not everyone is willing to reholder their books to get this note added.

If the label note is the end of this great, but if CGC tinkers with the census or registry along with this change you’ve just created a mess.

Thank you!

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/10675/comics-newsstand-multipack/

@CGC Mike

@wytshus

Edited September 27, 2022 by Iconic1s

[Qalyar]

Contrariwise, I hope there's some way to incorporate this decision into the Registry. 

[Iconic1s]

On 9/26/2022 at 7:56 PM, Qalyar said:

Contrariwise, I hope there's some way to incorporate this decision into the Registry. 

I’m all about the label annotation, but not an additional slot for two copies of the same book.  That’s just CGC drumming up business again.  I know there are plenty of newsstand people out there but I can’t believe they would outnumber the rest of the collecting community on this issue.

Again, I’m all for the annotation but not the additional slot.

[wytshus]

As far as I know, the Comic ID and Cert #s will not change.  Resubmitted Newsstand Editions will be considered variants as far as the registry is concerned.   I will create new slots in the sets based on requests.  Scoring will depend on the series, and newsstand variants will probably be scored slightly higher.

[Iconic1s]

On 9/27/2022 at 9:25 AM, wytshus said:

As far as I know, the Comic ID and Cert #s will not change.  Resubmitted Newsstand Editions will be considered variants as far as the registry is concerned.   I will create new slots in the sets based on requests.  Scoring will depend on the series, and newsstand variants will probably be scored slightly higher.

Appreciate the reply!

So CGC just forced newsstand collecting onto anyone that wants to be competitive within the Registry!

 This sucks!

[wytshus]

Quote

 This sucks!

 

No comment...heh.

 

Feel free to request new sets.  I am starting to really like First Print only sets.  Variants are huge pain.

[Iconic1s]

On 9/27/2022 at 9:35 AM, wytshus said:

No comment...heh.

That was my comment.  I said ‘this sucks’ not ‘you’ suck so don’t take it personally.

And yes, from my perspective it does indeed suck.

Do what you want with the Registry… as soon as I copy the text I’ve worked on the past few years I’ll be deleting my sets.

[ADAMANTIUM]

@wytshus stay safe! On the off chance you work from home or are bored, when do we get some insight on the new point system? Or the reason the point change was closed?

Patience I guess, but there seems to be changes coming! Just curious 

 

[Qalyar]

On 9/27/2022 at 9:48 AM, Iconic1s said:

That was my comment.  I said ‘this sucks’ not ‘you’ suck so don’t take it personally.

And yes, from my perspective it does indeed suck.

Do what you want with the Registry… as soon as I copy the text I’ve worked on the past few years I’ll be deleting my sets.

I hope you'll reconsider ... both aspects of this, really.

First, you have fantastic registry sets, and I don't think the potential addition of newsstand slots is going to make any of them at realistic risk of being dethroned from their positions. Especially looking at the Death of Superman set, there's just no realistic way that someone could take any realistic inferior set, add some newsstands, and beat what you've accomplished there. Nor, honestly, do I think anyone would try to do so. There may be some edge-case sets out there somewhere where the addition of newsstands will be a major issue in competitiveness but I expect that to be the exception rather than the norm.

But I'd also like to encourage you to consider... actually being interested in newsstand printings, at least for some of these books. Obviously, there are a lot of differences between distribution printing variants versus secondary printings. But there's sometimes also a lot of similarities. Something like Superman #82, for example. The first and second printing are almost "the same book"; they differ by the presence or absence of a roman numeral II in the upper left corner (and, I believe, a note in the indicia). The cover art is the same. The content is the same. To a lot of people, they're the same book. But, of course, they aren't (and that 9.8 2nd printing you have in that set is particularly nice). The difference between a 1st printing DM copy and a 1st printing newsstand is, of course, just the contents of that box at the bottom-left... but also the story of the book. What kind of businesses it was sold to, what journey it took to get from production to collection. With Death of Superman, in particular, I think it's amazing that Superman 75 not only went to four printings for the direct market, but that it went to four printings for newsstand sales, also; I'm not sure, but it may very well be unique in that regard (and I actually didn't realize all four printings had NS editions until I was looking up books related to your set!). That's a testament to the uniquely enormous cultural impact of that book. Most newsstand comics probably never sold out their entire run and had copies returned for refunds (which is why no one does them anymore), but so many people outside the comic-book-store crowd wanted to buy that book and read about the death of Superman, that it sold out in bookstores and newsstands not once, not twice, but at least three times.

I'm probably not going to pretend that I'm going to convince you -- or anyone else -- that these books are interesting or worthwhile if you've decided otherwise. And I get that irresponsible pricing by market manipulators has soured a lot of people on newsstand collecting in general. People suck. But regardless, I hope you reconsider packing up what you've accomplished here. I love the hunt, especially for books that are subtly different from what they seem to be. So I'm really, really excited that I have more books to find, and more -- sometimes challenging -- books to showcase. But that doesn't lessen your collection's value as it stands, even if you don't want to change anything.

[Iconic1s]

On 9/28/2022 at 10:50 AM, Qalyar said:

I hope you'll reconsider ... both aspects of this, really.

First, you have fantastic registry sets, and I don't think the potential addition of newsstand slots is going to make any of them at realistic risk of being dethroned from their positions. Especially looking at the Death of Superman set, there's just no realistic way that someone could take any realistic inferior set, add some newsstands, and beat what you've accomplished there. Nor, honestly, do I think anyone would try to do so. There may be some edge-case sets out there somewhere where the addition of newsstands will be a major issue in competitiveness but I expect that to be the exception rather than the norm.

But I'd also like to encourage you to consider... actually being interested in newsstand printings, at least for some of these books. Obviously, there are a lot of differences between distribution printing variants versus secondary printings. But there's sometimes also a lot of similarities. Something like Superman #82, for example. The first and second printing are almost "the same book"; they differ by the presence or absence of a roman numeral II in the upper left corner (and, I believe, a note in the indicia). The cover art is the same. The content is the same. To a lot of people, they're the same book. But, of course, they aren't (and that 9.8 2nd printing you have in that set is particularly nice). The difference between a 1st printing DM copy and a 1st printing newsstand is, of course, just the contents of that box at the bottom-left... but also the story of the book. What kind of businesses it was sold to, what journey it took to get from production to collection. With Death of Superman, in particular, I think it's amazing that Superman 75 not only went to four printings for the direct market, but that it went to four printings for newsstand sales, also; I'm not sure, but it may very well be unique in that regard (and I actually didn't realize all four printings had NS editions until I was looking up books related to your set!). That's a testament to the uniquely enormous cultural impact of that book. Most newsstand comics probably never sold out their entire run and had copies returned for refunds (which is why no one does them anymore), but so many people outside the comic-book-store crowd wanted to buy that book and read about the death of Superman, that it sold out in bookstores and newsstands not once, not twice, but at least three times.

I'm probably not going to pretend that I'm going to convince you -- or anyone else -- that these books are interesting or worthwhile if you've decided otherwise. And I get that irresponsible pricing by market manipulators has soured a lot of people on newsstand collecting in general. People suck. But regardless, I hope you reconsider packing up what you've accomplished here. I love the hunt, especially for books that are subtly different from what they seem to be. So I'm really, really excited that I have more books to find, and more -- sometimes challenging -- books to showcase. But that doesn't lessen your collection's value as it stands, even if you don't want to change anything.

Hello, I appreciate you taking a look at my sets and I also appreciate you asking me to reconsider.  I've poured a lot of heart into my descriptions and pics, particularly in the Superman set as that has come to mean a lot to me.  I started collecting again when my Mom sent that to me for Christmas while in the Marine Corps.  I ended up spending 30 years in the Corps and to be honest, if I hadn't had that story and Superman collecting in general to have as an outlet I probably would have went crazy.  Newsstands were never part of my collecting journey and I always preferred direct over them because I care more about how the book presented and the story than it's rarity.  I don't sell anything... I'd rather give something away to someone that I know will appreciate it before doing that.  There are probably a few people on these boards that can attest to that.  I'm not going to retire on any of my books.

When I began my Registry set I was focused on just the Death storyline.  Empty slots and a little OCD got me fixated on the entire set.  I also prefer Universal over Signature Series but got caught up in those for 'points' more than anything (shame on me).  I worked hard to get the set to 100% completion and also had a couple books added.  With the help of @Brandon Shepherdwe got it organized and renamed properly.  I submitted a ton of books to get it where it is and networked my rear end off... met a lot of nice people too!

Having said all that, I'm not a newsstand guy, I never will be.  I see CGC's decision to call them variants and award them extra points in the registry as meddling with the market once again.  They are basically going to drive up the prices and demand for newsstand by separating them like this and I refuse to buy something yet again (Signature Series) that I actually don't prefer.  I'm all about the designation on the label, and even breaking them down in the census if that pleases the newsstand hunters... even though it doesn't matter at this point because we are so far in that the census will NEVER be correct when it comes to them.  I'm just not about extra slots in sets and additional points for them. That does two things, 1) it immediately gives newsstand hunters an advantage in the registry and 2) or it makes a whole bunch of people newsstand hunters that aren't.  I'm not getting sucked into that.

I had a good time, I received a couple plaques which aren't going anywhere.  Rather than sit back and watch slots pop open for books I will never want to own (and which I don't think should have slots) I'll walk away.  I've started a custom set where I'll keep my books until I figure another way to preserve all my hard work in my descriptions.  I've added some other books that I believe should be there and am able to organize it how I like, in reading order  It's all good, and I've started to enjoy collecting just a little bit more already.  I figure I can delete my competitive sets in the next week or so, just in case CGC clarifies this and doesn't do what I think they have done.

Again, I really appreciate you reaching out and also your kind words regarding my sets.  Take care!

 

[Sauce Dog]

Honestly if CGC decides that Newsstands warrant different slots and higher points, I would expect them to extend the same logic to Pedigree / File Copies which certainly do have a history of commanding a higher price than a regular copy of the same book.

[Qalyar]

On 10/3/2022 at 10:39 AM, Sauce Dog said:

Honestly if CGC decides that Newsstands warrant different slots and higher points, I would expect them to extend the same logic to Pedigree / File Copies which certainly do have a history of commanding a higher price than a regular copy of the same book.

I don't care if pedigree books are worth more points than blue labels. Heck, I think that's a better idea than having SS books worth more points than blue labels (although I'm unabashedly anti-SS). But pedigree books shouldn't have their own slots, because they were not created as physically-distinguishable books by their publisher.

[Yorick]

@Iconic1s Your DoS set would be missed by many if you were to delete it.  Please don't. 

I had a few sets at #1 for a while before I was de-throned (especially after certain books were "valued" more than others and became worth more registry points).  I am not going to delete them as I have spent some time putting up pictures and descriptions and I know that there are other collectors out there that like to see the books and read other collector's experiences and journeys.  However, before I even started "competing" in the registry, I knew that there were better sets out there (perhaps not with your set - you probably have the best).  Use the registry more as a checklist.  Newsstand books may or may not be worth more points, but they ARE different books.

Having said that, when other collectors asked for a very rare No Number titled book be added to a numbered title book (Diary Secrets) in which I compete, I knew I'd never get to the 100% I was striving for.  I had to cure myself of the OCD for that 100%. 

Don't lose sight of the joy that your books have given you.

[Sauce Dog]

On 10/3/2022 at 12:03 PM, Qalyar said:

I don't care if pedigree books are worth more points than blue labels. Heck, I think that's a better idea than having SS books worth more points than blue labels (although I'm unabashedly anti-SS). But pedigree books shouldn't have their own slots, because they were not created as physically-distinguishable books by their publisher.

I agree about the slots, they should not have their own, I only think they should be recognized as carrying a premium in points compared to the exact same book in the grade (even if it is slight, could just be a handful of points at most)

[Iconic1s]

On 10/3/2022 at 11:40 AM, Yorick said:

@Iconic1s Your DoS set would be missed by many if you were to delete it.  Please don't. 

I had a few sets at #1 for a while before I was de-throned (especially after certain books were "valued" more than others and became worth more registry points).  I am not going to delete them as I have spent some time putting up pictures and descriptions and I know that there are other collectors out there that like to see the books and read other collector's experiences and journeys.  However, before I even started "competing" in the registry, I knew that there were better sets out there (perhaps not with your set - you probably have the best).  Use the registry more as a checklist.  Newsstand books may or may not be worth more points, but they ARE different books.

Having said that, when other collectors asked for a very rare No Number titled book be added to a numbered title book (Diary Secrets) in which I compete, I knew I'd never get to the 100% I was striving for.  I had to cure myself of the OCD for that 100%. 

Don't lose sight of the joy that your books have given you.

I appreciate that!  I’ve created custom sets where I’ll keep my books and where people can check them out if they’d like… added a few extra books as well.  If I can find a better alternative to that I’ll probably use it instead.

It’s just a matter of time before I delete my competitive sets.  I’m all the way on one side with this issue. I’ve got nothing against newsstands necessarily, they just aren’t my thing. By CGC doing this they are just trying to make guys like me buy books that they wouldn’t otherwise buy.  They already got me with ss books… I like Universal all day long over ss books but got caught up in it for points.  Not going to do the same with newsstands, which I REALLY don’t prefer.

I didn’t even know what the registry was a few years ago and was pretty happy collecting, I got caught up in it and had a good time but I think I’ll be okay without it.

CGC is a company that exists to make money and this is just another example of them making a decision to do just that.  I do think it’s funny that they said they have ‘extensively researched’ which books had newsstands and multi-pack versions… there are real experts on these forums that have been doing that for years, and even they still find it difficult to nail down certain books.

I’m the kind of guy that has to draw the line somewhere… once I hit delete set I won’t give it another thought.

[Iconic1s]

On 10/3/2022 at 12:21 PM, Sauce Dog said:

I agree about the slots, they should not have their own, I only think they should be recognized as carrying a premium in points compared to the exact same book in the grade (even if it is slight, could just be a handful of points at most)

The problem I see with this is that the census will never accurately reflect relative scarcity. So, who is to say what extra points any particular book would get?  It’s just CGC or a few people that are passionate about a particular book or two making their case. It’s going to be a mess. 

[Sauce Dog]

On 10/3/2022 at 2:23 PM, Iconic1s said:

The problem I see with this is that the census will never accurately reflect relative scarcity. So, who is to say what extra points any particular book would get?  It’s just CGC or a few people that are passionate about a particular book or two making their case. It’s going to be a mess. 

It never will but I don't think it need to be (census is it's own beast to be tackled separate from the Registry), and there is no need to keep registry points linked to scarcity/price - standardizing a few things like Pedigree can be done even if they are a single point higher than the equivalent universal which would allow alternate paths in set building (as often trying to buy the next grade up to increase your score could mean spending thousands of dollars, but buying the same grade you have now in a pedigree might only mean spending a few more bucks), same can go for Newsstand editions.

[Iconic1s]

On 10/3/2022 at 2:24 PM, Sauce Dog said:

It never will but I don't think it need to be (census is it's own beast to be tackled separate from the Registry), and there is no need to keep registry points linked to scarcity/price - standardizing a few things like Pedigree can be done even if they are a single point higher than the equivalent universal which would allow alternate paths in set building (as often trying to buy the next grade up to increase your score could mean spending thousands of dollars, but buying the same grade you have now in a pedigree might only mean spending a few more bucks), same can go for Newsstand editions.

I don't know everything that goes into assigning Registry points but I understand some of it has to do with sales.  For this reason I believe the census and the registry are linked.

You hardly see a rare book listed without something like 'lone 9.8 in the census' or 'highest graded.'  We will now see 'one of only three 9.8 newsstands with 15 Directs.'  This will impact prices.

Lets say there are currently 50 of a certain book graded, we have no idea how many are newsstands.  One guy has a newsstand that they get reholdered.  Now there is 1 newsstand and 49 directs... does that make it suddenly super rare?  Maybe the majority of GRADED copies of that particular book are actually newsstands and they are much more common in GRADED form than their direct counterparts.  Yet CGC arbitrarily assigns that one reholdered newsstand more points, just because.

This is why I have a problem with it.  We are over 20 years into this... unless CGC offers free reholders to all newsstands and then goes into people's homes and takes them to be reholdered we can never tell for sure how much rarer they are in relation to their direct counterparts IN THE CENSUS, which is what should matter because we are talking about books that have been graded… forget the debate about distribution, etc because what’s suppose to matter in the registry is GRADED books  So, with no real knowledge of a books actual rarity graded, it is automatically considered rare because CGC said so and gave it more points.

I'm all about the label annotation... I think that's nice, but just can't get on board with additional slots and extra points.  This is just my opinion... I know CGC wants to make money and this is yet another way to do so.  I'm just choosing not to get caught up in this... for me, it's time to walk away from what used to be a fairly decent registry.

P.S I didn’t even mention what might happen when, with this new policy, all the newsstands start flooding CGC and all of a sudden outnumber certain low census books.  What then CGC?

 

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Iconic1s

[Iconic1s]

One last comment… I am already seeing newsstands of the few books I keep an eye on going up pretty significantly.  Superman 74… about a $60-$70 book… two newsstand on MCS, one for $199 and another $234.

CGC says due to ‘increased demand.’  I don’t think the demand is coming from actual registry users, it’s from all the ‘CGC partners/affiliates’ which CGC now sends emails out on behalf of.  There is still plenty of money to be made off of us, and they know it.

IF, big IF there are vast numbers of users that want this they are still in the minority… take a look at the Crisis on Infinite Earths set and see how it got jacked up with ‘Canadian Price Variants’ that only a couple guys care about,  I don’t even compete in that set and it irritates me… that ‘with variants’ set even has reprints from 15 years after the fact.  Clearly should have been a custom set but this is what the entire registry is about to look like.

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Iconic1s

[wytshus]

Quote

when do we get some insight on the new point system? Or the reason the point change was closed?

Once I get caught up, I will create a new thread addressing scoring.

For now, I will say this:

 

Scoring in the Registry has been an issue since I inherited it.  I whine about it to the powers that be every chance I get...heh.

 

When I add a modern book, I usually score a Universal 9.0 according to the minimum cover price (3 or 4, depending on the issue date).  Once that score is inputted, there is supposed to be an algorithm that adjusts the score based on  scarcity, desirability, and value.

 

 

 

Golden Age, and older Silver Age books usually get their score from it's next closest issue.

We have discovered an issue with the algorithm, it is not adjusting scores properly for some restored books, and this throws the whole scoring system into question.  I have locked the scoring thread due to this, and also because of the volatility of the speculative market.  There are no automated updates in place for scoring in the registry, and due to the sheer number of books, manually updating scores every time there is a spike isn't feasible.

 

I also hope you will reconsider, @Iconic1s  I can tell you that those of us behind the scenes really appreciate the work you have put into your sets.