Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's. (1960) Showing Signs of Life! 2 2

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1960

Whatever the scenario was, and I'm pretty sure it's NOT how Lee would later embellish it, this is a somewhat overlooked and important comic in the history of things. Either Goodman and/or Lee realized they had something good in Kirby - something better than anything they had previously* - and it would be the start of things to come...

Also: In the first story, you may have noticed that's the Rawhide Kid's UNCLE BEN who is killed...

 

*In terms of sales, which all Goodman cared about. You can make the argument that Bill Everett was a better talent (and he WAS sensational) or Dan DeCarlo was amazing (he WAS!), but Kirby was maybe the only person who could've saved Marvel’s BUTT - it wouldn't have been LEE with MANEELY or any other combination people want to dream up. The Marvel Universe would've never been the same without Stan Lee... but it never would've EXISTED without Jack Kirby. 

Story THREE:

Edited October 10, 2022 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1960

The controversy doesn't end there, but first I'll post this issue of JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #59.

Jack Kirby does the cover (inked by Steve Ditko) and the lead story, both writing and pencilling it (inked by D. Ayers).

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1960

After the Marvel Implosion, the artists that still worked at Marvel ALL signed their work. Ditko, Colan, Ayers, Reiman, Heck, Sinnott, EVERYONE. 

Everyone except Jack Kirby. He didn't sign anything.

But when D. Ayers started inking his work in 1959, he would sign the work 'Kirby & Ayers'. He'd continue doing this until early 1961 when Lee began to cover these in white paint (White-out wasn't created until 1966). All of the other signatures would remain - it was only the 'Kirby & Ayers' signatures that he would cover up.

He even went so far as to remove them from reprints which had carried the signature when they were originally published. This is one of those issues... 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1960

Jack Kirby does the cover and the lead story, both writing and pencilling it (all inked by D. Ayers).

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1960

Jack Kirby does 6 of the 8 covers for the month! The other 2 are:

Love Romances #88 (Vince Colletta inks)

My Own Romance #76 (Vince Colletta inks)

[Zonker]

On 10/10/2022 at 9:13 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1960

Whatever the scenario was, and I'm pretty sure it's NOT how Lee would later embellish it, this is a somewhat overlooked and important comic in the history of things. Either Goodman and/or Lee realized they had something good in Kirby - something better than anything they had previously* - and it would be the start of things to come...

So it sounds like it is still a mystery what changed in 1960 that led to the Stan Lee sig being added to Kirby's strips?  I suppose the possibilities include:

1. Prior to 1960, the polishing of Kirby's dialogue was minimal, and so Stan recognized his contributions did not merit any sig?  And then starting in 1960, Stan's editing of Kirby's text became more significant, leading Stan to sign the work for the first time?
2. Nothing changed in 1960 except a policy decision to add the Stan Lee sig regardless of how much or little re-writing Stan did?

The examples provided suggest that it was Dick Ayers' addition of the Kirby & Ayers sig that eventually prompted the addition of Stan's sig.  But if so, isn't it still an open question whether the introduction of the Stan Lee sig reflected his contributions alongside those of Kirby and Ayers?  As opposed to a brazen credit-grab by Stan Lee of Kirby's work, arising from jealousy at seeing the Kirby and Ayers names in print for the first time?  

[Prince Namor]

On 10/10/2022 at 12:11 PM, Zonker said:

So it sounds like it is still a mystery what changed in 1960 that led to the Stan Lee sig being added to Kirby's strips?  I suppose the possibilities include:

1. Prior to 1960, the polishing of Kirby's dialogue was minimal, and so Stan recognized his contributions did not merit any sig?  And then starting in 1960, Stan's editing of Kirby's text became more significant, leading Stan to sign the work for the first time?
2. Nothing changed in 1960 except a policy decision to add the Stan Lee sig regardless of how much or little re-writing Stan did?

The examples provided suggest that it was Dick Ayers' addition of the Kirby & Ayers sig that eventually prompted the addition of Stan's sig.  But if so, isn't it still an open question whether the introduction of the Stan Lee sig reflected his contributions alongside those of Kirby and Ayers?  As opposed to a brazen credit-grab by Stan Lee of Kirby's work, arising from jealousy at seeing the Kirby and Ayers names in print for the first time?  

As Ditko and others used scripts from Inventory (meaning Stan didn’t sign the story), this doesn’t seem to be the case. No change occurred there. 
 

And believe me, you’ll see other examples by Stan that show his hand as we continue along…

And… I don’t think Kirby suddenly had a bad spell of dialogue that Stan had to correct. Story wise - Kirby was far more polished a story teller. He scripted everything he did within the story. 
 

What would change - according to Kirby later - is that Stan forced him to NOT dialogue in the stories. i.e. Stan forced himself into being ‘the writer’. 
 

Really Stan was simply having Kirby’s dialogue lettered and maybe doing small edits. Nothing more than any other editor would do. He might change “Our story begins…” to “It was a cold and windy day…”, but seriously, what had Stan Lee really written at this point that was better than Kirby’s volume of work? Or even comparable?

(There IS actually an answer to that question…)

So the answer to ‘what changed’ in 1960 is Stan feeling that Jack Kirby was threatening his position. Unlike what Stan presented as his past, the truth is he just oversaw production of most of the line - as a corporate watchdog - as others did the work. Even after the implosion, he only relied upon artists who could also write (DeCarlo and then Goldberg, Hartley, Keller) and fed anyone else inventory scripts. He could do minimal writing (“Lets do TWO coloring pages this issue!) and still get paid a page rate on top of his editorial salary. 
 

What changed here is Stan saw an opportunity and he grabbed it. He was well aware of Kirby’s ability to make a massive impact. He’d seen it first hand with Capt. America and then when S&K went to DC and then with Romance and then on his own with Challengers at DC. If Jack could produce 4 times as much as any other freelancer, and Stan could get credit for the ‘writing’…$$$$$$$
 

And as superheroes were building at DC, and Archie continued the Fly and Charlton continued Capt. Atom and Jack kept pushing to do superheroes at Marvel, Stan saw his chance to jump on that fast moving train that Joe Simon had lived off of for most of the last 20 years. 

I don’t know if he had the foresight to see what was to come, but I have no doubt that he saw the opportunity to DOUBLE his writer pay working with Kirby. He knew Jack was more focused on creating than business and Jack worked fast. 
 

He just would have to pacify Kirby with promises to keep him there as long as possible. The same promises Joe Simon made him. The same promises all publishers made talent in the business. It was a business where the publisher had all the power. And his in-law was the publisher. 

I’m not sure how long it’s been since you read the early Silver Age Marvels, but reading those monster stories… they read JUST LIKE some of the bad guy intros to those books. The only thing added would be Stan’s yellow box exposition that basically explains what’s going on in the art…

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1960

Steve Ditko again only did 2 stories for Marvel in March. From Journey Into Mystery #59. 

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Writer unknown. NOT written by Stan Lee. 

[Prince Namor]

 

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1960

Steve Ditko again only did 2 stories for Marvel in March. From Strange Tales #76. 

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Writer unknown. NOT written by Stan Lee. 

[Prince Namor]

 

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1960

Steve Ditko also did a story for Charlton Comics in March. From Strange Suspense Stories #47. 

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Writer Joe Gill. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1960

DC Comics brought out Brave and the Bold #29 in March, with a second appearance from the Justice League of America. Some make a connection between the cover and All Star Comics #43 from 1948. 

Cover by Mike Sekowsky. (All Star's cover by Irwin Hasen!)

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1960

In Adventure Comics #271, we learn how Luthor first came to be enemies with Superboy. Whenever I hear people talk of how Stan Lee created the idea of how villains had a back story of why they became 'bad', I always think of this comic. Luthor was originally friends with Superboy, but becomes a villain for the greatest reason of all! Baldness!

5 issues into his return to DC after 12 years away, Jerry Siegel's wife had actually contacted Jack Liebowitz and begged him to give her husband work. Fearing the bad publicity it might bring to turn him away, they relented and Siegel was again able to work on the character that he helped create.  

Written by Jerry Siegel, with art by Al Plastino - Cover by Curt Swan

[Prince Namor]

 

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1960

For April, Marvel would release 8 titles to the newsstand 

Stan Lee would write 3 of the titles for the month.

 

Patsy Walker #90 - with Al Hartley art. 

Kid Colt Outlaw #92 - 3 stories with Jack Keller, and one with Ross Andru.

Millie the Model #98 - with Stan Goldberg art 

Two Gun Kid #55 - 3 stories with John Severin, and one with Jack Kirby.

Kathy #6 - with Stan Goldberg art 

A Date with Millie #6 - with Stan Goldberg art 

 

The other 2 were:

Tales to Astonish #11 

Tales of Suspense #11 

 

[Prince Namor]

 

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1960

For April, the Western filler story that Kirby. does for Two Gun Kid #55 has Stan's signature added to it after the fact. This is the first time he puts his signature next to the 'Ayers & Kirby' signature. Kirby also does the cover and Ayers inks that as well. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1960

Jack Kirby also does the cover for Kid Colt Outlaw #92 (inked by D. Ayers)

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1960

Jack Kirby does the cover and lead story for Tales of Suspense #11, writing and penciling it. Ayers inks both the cover and the story.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1960

Jack Kirby does the cover, the lead story, and a second story for Tales to Astonish #11, writing and penciling. Ayers inks both the cover and the first story.

Story ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1960

Jack Kirby does the cover, the lead story, and a second story for Tales to Astonish #11, writing and penciling. Ditko inks the second story. 

Story TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1960

Jack was also still doing some freelance work. Just some odds and ends...

Like this 45 page monster for Gilberton's Classics Illustrated #35 [HRN 161] - The Last Days of Pompeii!

Inks by D. Ayers.

And no I'm not posting the whole story! 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1960

Steve Ditko again only did 2 stories for Marvel in April. From Tales to Astonish #11. 

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Writer unknown. 

This story is listed on comics.org as having been done previously, a year earlier in Tales of Suspense #6 with art by D. Ayers. 

No writer is listed, though in hindsight they credit Lee with the plot and Lieber with the -script.

We've already seen how bad Larry's -script's are, so I don't believe for a second he scripted either of these.

It was well known, that Stan would take -script's from inventory and tell the artists to 'rework' the idea, so it's possible it came form that - but as you can see there's a LOT left to the interpretation. It's possible this story appeared even previous to this.

Here's Ditko's version: