Comicmylars vs the late, great John Verzyl 5 5

[tth2]

On 10/22/2022 at 8:25 AM, Dr. Love said:

I get where Tim the collector is coming from.  If I'm dealing with "it's a VG if I'm buying it, a NM if I'm selling it" approach, then I'm a mark, and it's what I'd call adversarial.  It wasn't enough that those guys made money on the bid/ask spread.  They had to add percentages of return by weaseling in the condition spread.  Just business you say?  Sure, for comics, used cars, and the diamond district in NYC. 

And that's without even getting into outright misrepresentation and fraud as dealers tried to pass off restored books as unrestored.

Then there's selling a book to some typically undercapitalized dealer who tries to convince you to send it to him before he pays, and then it becomes clear he has cash flow problems and probably needs to flip it before he'll even have the money to pay you.  Who then throws a fit when you refuse to do that, insisting he can be trusted and insulting you for questioning his trustworthiness.  And then when he finally accepts that you need the cash in hand before you'll ship the book, comes up with some cockamamie proposal on some convoluted payment scheme that basically comes down to the fact that the guy is juggling a bunch of deals and needs them all to happen to be able to pay you.  At least a used car dealer will pay you on the spot once you have a deal.

On 10/22/2022 at 8:25 AM, Dr. Love said:

And still would be if the playing field wasn't completely leveled by Ebay in terms of market control and CGC in terms of objective grading.

You'd think, right? 

And yet, I've had dealers try to talk down slabbed books, pointing out various reasons why CGC overgraded the book.  

[tth2]

On 10/22/2022 at 3:24 AM, MusterMark said:

On 10/22/2022 at 1:30 AM, Bookery said:

On 10/21/2022 at 11:06 PM, tth2 said:

It comes with the territory in any business that is fundamentally adverserial, which comic dealing most definitely is. 

Why?  If you go in with an adversarial attitude, then yes, it's probably going to be difficult to make a deal.

I have never thought of dealers, or of getting comics from them, as adversarial in any way, shape or form.

And when dealers come across customers like this, they think to themselves "Touchdown!"

[MusterMark]

On 10/21/2022 at 7:54 PM, tth2 said:

And when dealers come across customers like this, they think to themselves "Touchdown!"

Hahaha, that is a far, far cry from reality.

[Tri-Color Brian]

On 10/21/2022 at 8:06 AM, tth2 said:

I'm no stranger to being on the other side of this.  Most people assume lawyers are sleazebags.  There are a whole lot more negative jokes about lawyers than comic dealers.  Never lost any sleep over it.

Wait...You're a LAWYER?  

[Bird]

On 10/22/2022 at 3:41 AM, MusterMark said:

Hahaha, that is a far, far cry from reality.

That exactly what a (muster)mark would say.

[MusterMark]

On 10/22/2022 at 6:51 AM, Bird said:

That exactly what a (muster)mark would say.

That’s what a little Bird told me.

[N e r V]

On 10/20/2022 at 2:34 PM, MrBedrock said:

Me too. Heck, even when I am talking to myself I am suspicious of my motives.

 

[adamstrange]

On 10/21/2022 at 1:30 PM, Bookery said:

 Goods (such as collectibles) have at least the potential to increase in value, or at least keep up with inflation.  Cash never increases in value... it can only be worth less over time because inflation is a one-way street.  Money is everywhere.  Trillions and trillions of dollars of it.  There are not trillions of comics.

There was a time when a gold-backed dollar could actually increase in value during times of deflation.

The Federal Reserve, thank goodness, has saved us from that nightmare world.

[N e r V]

On 10/21/2022 at 7:50 PM, tth2 said:

And that's without even getting into outright misrepresentation and fraud as dealers tried to pass off restored books as unrestored.

Then there's selling a book to some typically undercapitalized dealer who tries to convince you to send it to him before he pays, and then it becomes clear he has cash flow problems and probably needs to flip it before he'll even have the money to pay you.  Who then throws a fit when you refuse to do that, insisting he can be trusted and insulting you for questioning his trustworthiness.  And then when he finally accepts that you need the cash in hand before you'll ship the book, comes up with some cockamamie proposal on some convoluted payment scheme that basically comes down to the fact that the guy is juggling a bunch of deals and needs them all to happen to be able to pay you.  At least a used car dealer will pay you on the spot once you have a deal.

You'd think, right? 

And yet, I've had dealers try to talk down slabbed books, pointing out various reasons why CGC overgraded the book.  

To your first point I’d say if you know anyone who regularly misrepresents books you’re just asking for trouble to do business with them regardless of what their inventory looks like. Why play Russian roulette?

To your second point if someone is dumb enough to go that far to get “convinced “ to allow themselves into that situation it’s hard to be sympathetic. Because I’m assuming it’s a big enough book to begin with that I’m not just “shipping it off” unless it’s to someone like Heritage or others that I know for 100% has the dollars to pay. If you’re talking about something else and I misread your point then please expand on it.

Your third point I’ve never had happen personally but I’d say if it did I’m pretty comfortable telling that dealer why I feel the error of his ways if his critique of the said book was unwarranted.

 

Look I’ve been on both sides of the business as a fan/collector and a dealer. My perspective is always that everything is a business transaction and needs to be treated as every other business transaction in my life. If I like the food at Bedrocks place I’ll keep eating there. If the foods bad at another I won’t go back.  It’s like any other business. I never viewed the business of collecting as really cut throat per se but it is a hobby with high dollar numbers at times and emotions get involved because of the product so you have to at some point be firm in your business dealings and yes be aware of potential problems so kick the tires a few times before you buy…

[skypinkblu]

On 10/18/2022 at 5:34 PM, MikeRN said:

I had been watching Comicmylars' ALL STAR COMICS #7 CGC 4.0 for over a year( at $2895) and even pointed out how the item description was incorrect just before I tried to buy it:  Comicmylars rejected offers of $2600 and $2700, and said he would only take $2795.  Days later I politely offered $2795 via an email, but he instead raised the price to $3195, and said he had another offer higher than mine-yet the book still sits there.  Once Comicmylars knew he had some interest on this book he tried to TAKE ADVANTAGE and PRICE GOUGE me.  Before you fellow, stereotypical comic dealers chime in, realize that a 3.5% price reduction on a 'Make an Offer' is $3.50 off a $100; so going $2700 out of $2895 is only 7%.  I've been to conventions and met your ilk:  You're not in it for the love of comics, you're in it for the money & power you think you hold; and I've even heard the boastful stories some of them have told about buying rare comics for pennies on the dollar-and then they have the audacity to act as if they're entitled to multiples over price guide values.  Now the late, great John Verzyl was a man who understood comic book lovers, wasn't a 'cut throat' businessman, and would make a reasonable deal-and still make a profit.  I miss seeing Mr. Verzyl at conventions, and his Comic Book Heaven Auctions:  For those who love comic books, research him.  

I don't think I know Comic Mylars other than admiring some of the things I see posted on eBay...but I just looked to see if I had an All Star 7 in my collection and much to my surprise, the value I put on it was higher than I expected (I list approximate values in case I need it for insurance.. There was a sale of a 2.5 this year for $2k and I must have changed what I had before.

Perhaps that was what made him change his price? Sometimes a duck is just a duck...and I know quite a few nice, honest comic book dealers who I would trust without blinking an eye. I've even instructed my family to contact one who is a personal friend if G-d forbid I get hit by a truck.

[Dr. Love]

This conversation can easily branch out to the psychology of collecting.  Therein lies a spectrum of behaviors and motivations, some of which can be troubling in their consequences.  

Because of their specific psyches, collectors can be exploited in ways that go beyond Marketing/Sales 101.  That's why the business of collectibles is not just another capitalistic enterprise.

And romance is the most undervalued genre.  If you don't have any, not only are you missing out, but your collection stinks.  Contact me for more information!

[MikeRN]

Wow:  Well said!  Born in 1968:  Growing up, comics were all we had!  I attribute great comics for building my imagination & creating an escape from the hardships of life.  If you're saying I have a romance with comics, you're right.  As I proceed through the 'Fall' of my life, the nostalgic love for great, old comics(their smell, look.. the hunt for one you always wanted) makes me feel alive and young; and that romance will surely continue into the 'Winter' of my life.  This may seem silly and corny to some, but for those of you who love vintage comics, I think you can relate.  When I see a comic like FF#4 or ASC#7, I feel good-so call me a romantic.  If you're simply implying I should buy some GA romance comics, that's not my 'cup of tea'.  

Edited October 22, 2022 by MikeRN

[N e r V]

On 10/22/2022 at 12:20 PM, Dr. Love said:

This conversation can easily branch out to the psychology of collecting.  Therein lies a spectrum of behaviors and motivations, some of which can be troubling in their consequences.  

Because of their specific psyches, collectors can be exploited in ways that go beyond Marketing/Sales 101.  That's why the business of collectibles is not just another capitalistic enterprise.

And romance is the most undervalued genre.  If you don't have any, not only are you missing out, but your collection stinks.  Contact me for more information!

Well you are the doctor after all…

[jimbo_7071]

On 10/22/2022 at 3:41 AM, MusterMark said:

Hahaha, that is a far, far cry from reality.

Here's a hint: if a dealer asks you how much you want for a book before he'll make you an offer, walk away. That dealer is a sleazeball. Any honest dealer knows way more about the current value of comics than most collectors. An honest dealer can make you a fair offer without needing an asking price from you. Any dealer who insists that you state a dollar amount first is a complete scumbag who is looking for an easy mark to fleece.

Edited October 22, 2022 by jimbo_7071

[davet75]

On 10/22/2022 at 3:20 PM, Dr. Love said:

And romance is the most undervalued genre.

"This is not the genre you are looking for..."

.

.

.

@Dr. Love

[Tri-Color Brian]

On 10/22/2022 at 1:26 PM, MikeRN said:

If you're simply implying I should buy some GA romance comics, that's not my 'cup of tea'.  

You're not a cover collector, are you?  Because most cover collectors have picked up certain romance books over the years due to the amazing covers.  You're still young though, so there's still time to see the light...

[Bookery]

On 10/22/2022 at 5:30 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

Here's a hint: if a dealer asks you how much you want for a book before he'll make you an offer, walk away. That dealer is a sleazeball. Any honest dealer knows way more about the current value of comics than most collectors. An honest dealer can make you a fair offer without needing an asking price from you. Any dealer who insists that you state a dollar amount first is a complete scumbag who is looking for an easy mark to fleece.

That's completely absurd.  There is no one-size-fits-all.  I'm busy.  Most people coming in with items are just on a fishing expedition.  They really don't want to sell.  They just want a free appraisal.  I need a rough idea if we're going to even be in the ballpark.  I don't insist on an offer... but I'd like to have an idea of what they are expecting.  I don't play games.  I don't try and see how low someone will go.  I have a standard amount I pay for certain books (and I update that data constantly).  (Example 1): Just yesterday I asked a seller how much they wanted for a small stack of non-key silver-age.  The books were in decent condition, however (7s and 8s).  He was looking for $400.  It was obvious before even digging in to them that wouldn't be an issue.  So with that basis, it was worth going through them in detail.  I paid him $1200.

Most sellers do know what stuff is worth... (or they think they do... usually on the high side).  Almost everyone is a dealer these days (which makes these diatribes against "dealers" even more ridiculous).  But yes, there are exceptions.  As I said... there is no "rule" that you can use in every case.  (Example 2): Last year a woman in her 80s brought 2 small boxes of golden-age in.  They had been in the garage for years since her husband died.  But she'd seen an ad on TV for one of those traveling comic buyers who set up in parking lots and announce they are "buying" on a specific day.  This woman would have happily taken $500 for everything.  Fortunately, she had a friend who knew I'd be fair and guided her to my shop.  I ended up paying out $28,000 for her collection.  Obviously, in her case, I'm not going to ask her what she wants, because she would have no way of knowing their worth.

(Example 3):  Right now there is a seller sending out emails to every dealer in a 100-mile radius with a collection for sale (all or nothing).  There is a complete list and photos of a few select keys.  There are long runs of SA beginning about 1965, and other gap-filled runs.  Buyers have 60 days to come to their house and make offers.  They have graded every book "by CGC standards" even though the books are raw.  They have also priced them as if they are CGC graded.  From the pictures, they have books graded at 4.0 that are literally 1.0 at best.  There are books graded 8.0 that might be 4.0., etc.  Many of the keys shown are in very low grade (FF 48, 52) etc.  They also price out every single 80s and 90s comic probably at Overstreet at $4, $6, $9, etc., even though most of these will be put into dealers' $1-boxes.  They are asking for offers based on their personal appraisal of the collection at $150,000.  I'm guessing by what I've seen (and that's assuming some boxes aren't completely water-logged or otherwise damaged) that they might have $35-$40k worth of stuff.  So, I'm not going to respond nor am I going to waste time looking at the collection.  The reality is so far removed from their expectations that haggling about it would be pointless.  But... what if this collection had just wandered into the shop?  There are thousands of books.  What if I had no idea what they expected up front?  This would take hours to go through for a fair valuation.  And all that time would be a complete waste if afterward I found out they were this delusional about the value.

(Example 4):  A couple of months back a young couple came in with an "inherited collection" of 16 long boxes.  I asked them what they wanted.  They has "no idea" of the worth.  It was a wild mix... modern drek, but also some nice bronze keys.  Even a trashed X-Men #1 (.5-1.0).  So they leave them and I go through them.  They weren't in order, so it took most of a day to inspect everything.  When done we were looking at over 5 figures.  I told them what I was looking at.  They were quite impressed, and said the offer was more than fair.  However, in the hours since they'd dropped them off, they decided to go "in a different direction" and sell them to a friend.  They just wanted a free appraisal so they'd know what to charge their friend for the books.

I can imagine show dealers have it even tougher (I quit shows decades ago).  You have one day, may make multiple buys in that time... you simply can't afford to waste hours going through stuff that people have outrageous ideas about.  Sure... if someone brings in one key, or a small group of books... I generally just make an offer... it doesn't take long.  But if they are selling several long boxes worth of stuff... I need to know if they are coming from planet Earth or not.

[blazingbob]

On 10/23/2022 at 9:57 AM, Bookery said:

That's completely absurd.  There is no one-size-fits-all.  I'm busy.  Most people coming in with items are just on a fishing expedition.  They really don't want to sell.  They just want a free appraisal.  I need a rough idea if we're going to even be in the ballpark.  I don't insist on an offer... but I'd like to have an idea of what they are expecting.  I don't play games.  I don't try and see how low someone will go.  I have a standard amount I pay for certain books (and I update that data constantly).  (Example 1): Just yesterday I asked a seller how much they wanted for a small stack of non-key silver-age.  The books were in decent condition, however (7s and 8s).  He was looking for $400.  It was obvious before even digging in to them that wouldn't be an issue.  So with that basis, it was worth going through them in detail.  I paid him $1200.

Most sellers do know what stuff is worth... (or they think they do... usually on the high side).  Almost everyone is a dealer these days (which makes these diatribes against "dealers" even more ridiculous).  But yes, there are exceptions.  As I said... there is no "rule" that you can use in every case.  (Example 2): Last year a woman in her 80s brought 2 small boxes of golden-age in.  They had been in the garage for years since her husband died.  But she'd seen an ad on TV for one of those traveling comic buyers who set up in parking lots and announce they are "buying" on a specific day.  This woman would have happily taken $500 for everything.  Fortunately, she had a friend who knew I'd be fair and guided her to my shop.  I ended up paying out $28,000 for her collection.  Obviously, in her case, I'm not going to ask her what she wants, because she would have no way of knowing their worth.

(Example 3):  Right now there is a seller sending out emails to every dealer in a 100-mile radius with a collection for sale (all or nothing).  There is a complete list and photos of a few select keys.  There are long runs of SA beginning about 1965, and other gap-filled runs.  Buyers have 60 days to come to their house and make offers.  They have graded every book "by CGC standards" even though the books are raw.  They have also priced them as if they are CGC graded.  From the pictures, they have books graded at 4.0 that are literally 1.0 at best.  There are books graded 8.0 that might be 4.0., etc.  Many of the keys shown are in very low grade (FF 48, 52) etc.  They also price out every single 80s and 90s comic probably at Overstreet at $4, $6, $9, etc., even though most of these will be put into dealers' $1-boxes.  They are asking for offers based on their personal appraisal of the collection at $150,000.  I'm guessing by what I've seen (and that's assuming some boxes aren't completely water-logged or otherwise damaged) that they might have $35-$40k worth of stuff.  So, I'm not going to respond nor am I going to waste time looking at the collection.  The reality is so far removed from their expectations that haggling about it would be pointless.  But... what if this collection had just wandered into the shop?  There are thousands of books.  What if I had no idea what they expected up front?  This would take hours to go through for a fair valuation.  And all that time would be a complete waste if afterward I found out they were this delusional about the value.

(Example 4):  A couple of months back a young couple came in with an "inherited collection" of 16 long boxes.  I asked them what they wanted.  They has "no idea" of the worth.  It was a wild mix... modern drek, but also some nice bronze keys.  Even a trashed X-Men #1 (.5-1.0).  So they leave them and I go through them.  They weren't in order, so it took most of a day to inspect everything.  When done we were looking at over 5 figures.  I told them what I was looking at.  They were quite impressed, and said the offer was more than fair.  However, in the hours since they'd dropped them off, they decided to go "in a different direction" and sell them to a friend.  They just wanted a free appraisal so they'd know what to charge their friend for the books.

I can imagine show dealers have it even tougher (I quit shows decades ago).  You have one day, may make multiple buys in that time... you simply can't afford to waste hours going through stuff that people have outrageous ideas about.  Sure... if someone brings in one key, or a small group of books... I generally just make an offer... it doesn't take long.  But if they are selling several long boxes worth of stuff... I need to know if they are coming from planet Earth or not.

Thank you for this post,  I've written and deleted quite a few responses since I must qualify as a scumbag/sleazebag by asking what a seller wants for the item that they are selling.  I don't look at the sellers as "marks to fleece",  it is more to see if we are even in the ballpark.  Most offers I've given at show are responded with "I'll think about it" or the offer is shopped around.  I've even had other dealers come up to me and ask if I really did offer that number so that they are comfortable beating my offer.  Win/Win for me I guess?  

[MikeRN]

You sound like an honest dealer.  I edited my original post after some long thoughts; and I do understand there is more than one point of view:  In this case, specifically, buyer and seller.  Moreover, I get how a seller has to contend with eBay's 13% fee, among the myriad of other issues involved with running a business-as you pointed out in your post:  I'm sure it's very involved.  So if I offended, it was unintentional , and I apologize.  However, I felt I made fair offers, and raising the price $500 after showing interest, and after coming back willing to pay what he wanted days earlier, was very frustrating.  In addition, the higher the price the more tax added on to the final sale price.  I was just looking to get the book for a fair price.

[Sweet Lou 14]

On 10/23/2022 at 9:57 AM, Bookery said:

That's completely absurd.  There is no one-size-fits-all.  I'm busy.  Most people coming in with items are just on a fishing expedition.  They really don't want to sell.  They just want a free appraisal.  I need a rough idea if we're going to even be in the ballpark.  I don't insist on an offer... but I'd like to have an idea of what they are expecting.  I don't play games.  I don't try and see how low someone will go.  I have a standard amount I pay for certain books (and I update that data constantly).  (Example 1): Just yesterday I asked a seller how much they wanted for a small stack of non-key silver-age.  The books were in decent condition, however (7s and 8s).  He was looking for $400.  It was obvious before even digging in to them that wouldn't be an issue.  So with that basis, it was worth going through them in detail.  I paid him $1200.

Most sellers do know what stuff is worth... (or they think they do... usually on the high side).  Almost everyone is a dealer these days (which makes these diatribes against "dealers" even more ridiculous).  But yes, there are exceptions.  As I said... there is no "rule" that you can use in every case.  (Example 2): Last year a woman in her 80s brought 2 small boxes of golden-age in.  They had been in the garage for years since her husband died.  But she'd seen an ad on TV for one of those traveling comic buyers who set up in parking lots and announce they are "buying" on a specific day.  This woman would have happily taken $500 for everything.  Fortunately, she had a friend who knew I'd be fair and guided her to my shop.  I ended up paying out $28,000 for her collection.  Obviously, in her case, I'm not going to ask her what she wants, because she would have no way of knowing their worth.

(Example 3):  Right now there is a seller sending out emails to every dealer in a 100-mile radius with a collection for sale (all or nothing).  There is a complete list and photos of a few select keys.  There are long runs of SA beginning about 1965, and other gap-filled runs.  Buyers have 60 days to come to their house and make offers.  They have graded every book "by CGC standards" even though the books are raw.  They have also priced them as if they are CGC graded.  From the pictures, they have books graded at 4.0 that are literally 1.0 at best.  There are books graded 8.0 that might be 4.0., etc.  Many of the keys shown are in very low grade (FF 48, 52) etc.  They also price out every single 80s and 90s comic probably at Overstreet at $4, $6, $9, etc., even though most of these will be put into dealers' $1-boxes.  They are asking for offers based on their personal appraisal of the collection at $150,000.  I'm guessing by what I've seen (and that's assuming some boxes aren't completely water-logged or otherwise damaged) that they might have $35-$40k worth of stuff.  So, I'm not going to respond nor am I going to waste time looking at the collection.  The reality is so far removed from their expectations that haggling about it would be pointless.  But... what if this collection had just wandered into the shop?  There are thousands of books.  What if I had no idea what they expected up front?  This would take hours to go through for a fair valuation.  And all that time would be a complete waste if afterward I found out they were this delusional about the value.

(Example 4):  A couple of months back a young couple came in with an "inherited collection" of 16 long boxes.  I asked them what they wanted.  They has "no idea" of the worth.  It was a wild mix... modern drek, but also some nice bronze keys.  Even a trashed X-Men #1 (.5-1.0).  So they leave them and I go through them.  They weren't in order, so it took most of a day to inspect everything.  When done we were looking at over 5 figures.  I told them what I was looking at.  They were quite impressed, and said the offer was more than fair.  However, in the hours since they'd dropped them off, they decided to go "in a different direction" and sell them to a friend.  They just wanted a free appraisal so they'd know what to charge their friend for the books.

I can imagine show dealers have it even tougher (I quit shows decades ago).  You have one day, may make multiple buys in that time... you simply can't afford to waste hours going through stuff that people have outrageous ideas about.  Sure... if someone brings in one key, or a small group of books... I generally just make an offer... it doesn't take long.  But if they are selling several long boxes worth of stuff... I need to know if they are coming from planet Earth or not.

Fantastic post, and everyone who wants to understand the dealer's perspective should read it.

My only quibble is, while I understand what you mean when you say "almost everyone is a dealer these days," I do think that blurs the distinction between someone who's selling out of their own personal collection (that would be me, a very small percentage of the time), someone who's flipping books as their side hustle (no matter how much volume they are doing), and a professional dealer.

I consider @blazingboba good friend so let me be his anger translator for a moment.  People who are slinging wild accusations at "dealers" should try to be a bit more specific because calling them all "sleazebags" does real harm to the established, trustworthy dealers whose livelihoods depend on the good reputation they've worked so hard to earn.